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Thread: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

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    PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    UPDATE: Decided to go VSP and Pentair. Only going to cost me $450 over the current contract price. Seems like a no brainer. Changes below. Any other changes you guys can recommend? Still thinking about the 400BTU upgrade. Also not too thrilled with the bulkyness of the 520547 remote... Should I consider Intellitouch so I can use my phone to control everything?

    Automation: Prologic PL-PS-8 to Easy Touch 8
    Sanitation: T-Cell-15 to IntelliChlor Salt Chlorinator IC40
    Pump: Tristar 2 Speed in contract to IntelliFlo VS-3050 with SVRS.
    Filter: S220T Sand to Tagelus TA-100D
    Heater: H250FDN to MasterTemp 250HD
    Remote: Aquapod AQL2-POD to Wireless Control Panel 520547

    Mike


    All,

    Our pool builder is going to start digging in about 6 weeks depending on the weather here in MI. I had all the equiptment dialed in except the pump. When I decided to upgrade to VS, my pool builder said he has had good luck with the Pentair Intelliflo and suggested we switch over all equiptment. He is not going to charge me any more, I just don't want him to downgrade me without knowing. See below:

    Automation: Prologic PL-PS-8 to ????? Easytouch? Very confused here...
    Sanitation: T-Cell-15 to IntelliChlor Salt Chlorinator IC40?
    Pump: Ecostar to IntelliFlo VS-3050? Do I add the SVRS?
    Filter: S220T Sand to Sand Dollar? Clear Pro? Lots of options here...
    Heater: H250FDN to MasterTemp 250? What is HD option?
    Remote: Aquapod AQL2-POD to ????? No idea, tied in with automation choice.

    Mike

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    Wow, drastic move. Wonder what Hayward did to upset him? Hayward has a VSP that works very well & integrates seamlessly with the PL-PS-8 you originally had spec'd and has a slight efficiency edge over the Intelliflow. The PL-PS-8 is more user friendly than the Pentair, IMHO. Remainder is about equal. Either will work fine, I'm sure. Good he's not charging you any more, since he's probably getting a discount, or possibly some free equipment for switching...lol
    APSP CST Certified
    17k inground concrete; 1.5hp 2 speed Tristar pump, 300sq.ft. Cartridge filter, AquaLogic PS-4 w/ Tcell-15, Navigator suction cleaner.

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    Both filters are too small. Either an S-310 Hayward or if Pentair, Tagelus TA-100D for sand filters or a Clean and Clear Plus, either the CCPS420 or CCPS520 for Pentair cartridge filters.

    The VS-SVRS is safer.

    Easy Touch with Wireless Control Panel. If you have a spa, put an iS-10 spa side controller in also.

    HD signifies that it's a cupro-nickel heat exchanger with is what you want. They last longer than the older straight copper units. WRT to the sizing, the same amount of gas will be used to heat the spa if you went with the 400, it will just heat almost twice as fast.

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    I agree, I don't think he has motives though, but we will see... I think I can force him to stick with Hayward because we have a contract. Just don't want to **** him off before we start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger987
    Wow, drastic move. Wonder what Hayward did to upset him? Hayward has a VSP that works very well & integrates seamlessly with the PL-PS-8 you originally had spec'd and has a slight efficiency edge over the Intelliflow. The PL-PS-8 is more user friendly than the Pentair, IMHO. Remainder is about equal. Either will work fine, I'm sure. Good he's not charging you any more, since he's probably getting a discount, or possibly some free equipment for switching...lol

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    How do you know the 220 is too small without knowing the gallon size pool we will have? It will be a 16x36 kidney sport pool. 3.5' on both ends and 6' in middle. Maybe 17K gallons? Do you think cartridge is better and why?

    No spa in the plans... solar heating though...

    Thanks for the rest of the info.

    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Both filters are too small. Either an S-310 Hayward or if Pentair, Tagelus TA-100D for sand filters or a Clean and Clear Plus, either the CCPS420 or CCPS520 for Pentair cartridge filters.

    The VS-SVRS is safer.

    Easy Touch with Wireless Control Panel. If you have a spa, put an iS-10 spa side controller in also.

    HD signifies that it's a cupro-nickel heat exchanger with is what you want. They last longer than the older straight copper units. WRT to the sizing, the same amount of gas will be used to heat the spa if you went with the 400, it will just heat almost twice as fast.

    Scott

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    I have a 220t on a 13k gal pool with a 0.5hp pump and while on a 17K gal pool it is not undersized, it is certainly not oversized. Oversizing your filter is always a good idea if you have the room for it on your equipment pad. The other issue is that since you are investing in a VS pump (up to 3hp), you will want the largest filter you can accomodate and at least 2" plumbing...otherwise you will never be able to use the pump to it's fullest potential. A 220t filter on a vs running anything over 50% power would likely be too restrictive and prone to channeling.

    Quite frankly, if the pool is as simple as you describe, you could probably save more than a few $'s by just sticking with a 0.5-0.75 hp single speed full rated pump and the 220t or 244t, which would still be able to handle solar and provide a fulll turnover in about 5-6 hours....assuming your electric rates are not high...then the VS route makes more sense.
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    The IntelliFlo is a better pump, with a much longer track record, than anything Hayward has. On the other hand the Hayward automation is better than anything Pentair has. There are significant advantages to getting both pump and automation system from the same company (they need to be able to talk to each other). So there is always something of a dilemma about which way to go.

    You almost always want a filter larger than the builder specifies. Larger filters are more efficient and don't need to be cleaned as often.

    ClearPro is cool, but most people don't think it is worth the extra money.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    Thanks for the tip on oversizing the filter is we go VS. Setting it to max output to skim/vacuum would suck if the filter was a huge restriction. Looks like you did some math, any idea on how big we should go?

    Glad to hear my pool will be simple... I was a bit overwelmed with the solar/priming and what not. Below are the scenarios I think I will need and why I think I want a VS.

    1) May and October, Speed 1 - Lowest speed to keep gas heater and filter operating when wanting to heat the pool.
    2) May and October, Speed 2 - Lowest speed to keep the filter operating and to turnover the pool the required amount
    3) All Year, Speed 3 - High speed for vacuuming and skimming a few hours a day as needed.
    4) June - September, Speed 4 - Medium speed to keep the solar system operating at 36gpm and filter. Revert to speed 2 the rest of the day.
    5) June - September, Speed 5 - Pump solar priming speed.

    Local electricty rates are about $.13 per kwh.

    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by dmanb2b
    I have a 220t on a 13k gal pool with a 0.5hp pump and while on a 17K gal pool it is not undersized, it is certainly not oversized. Oversizing your filter is always a good idea if you have the room for it on your equipment pad. The other issue is that since you are investing in a VS pump (up to 3hp), you will want the largest filter you can accomodate and at least 2" plumbing...otherwise you will never be able to use the pump to it's fullest potential. A 220t filter on a vs running anything over 50% power would likely be too restrictive and prone to channeling.

    Quite frankly, if the pool is as simple as you describe, you could probably save more than a few $'s by just sticking with a 0.5-0.75 hp single speed full rated pump and the 220t or 244t, which would still be able to handle solar and provide a fulll turnover in about 5-6 hours....assuming your electric rates are not high...then the VS route makes more sense.

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    I'd get a bigger heater. The 250k is ok, but a 400k will heat it faster and will use the same amount of gas in the end. Just check and make sure you have enough gas at the meter to power the heater correctly. Not sure why the builders spec out these small heaters.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    I think you'd be happy with a s244t (300lb) sand filter and 3/4 single speed superpump or even a 3/4 or 1hp two speed and it sure would make things very simple for you, especially with electric rates at 13 cents/kwh.

    Here are the scenarios you outline and my opinion, for what it's worth

    1) May and October, Speed 1 - Lowest speed to keep gas heater and filter operating when wanting to heat the pool.
    2) May and October, Speed 2 - Lowest speed to keep the filter operating and to turnover the pool the required amount

    #1 and #2 easily handled by a single speed...heaters (solar or gas) will be more efficient with a higher flow vs a lower flow rate. Yes you can set it for "optimal" flow rate, but your still talking about the 30-40gpm neighborhood

    3) All Year, Speed 3 - High speed for vacuuming and skimming a few hours a day as needed. Not, needed as the speed for heating will work just fine for vacuming and skimming
    4) June - September, Speed 4 - Medium speed to keep the solar system operating at 36gpm and filter. Revert to speed 2 the rest of the day.
    5) June - September, Speed 5 - Pump solar priming speed.

    #4 &#5 is not going to be much different than #1 and #2, however if you did go two speed you could use low speed to just have circulation, but there is nothing wrong with having a single speed running 6 hours a day, acheiving a full turnover and being done

    Gosh... I hope I'm not sending you down a road of re-thinking the whole design, but I just don't see why you would want to take what could be a fairly simple set-up and add complexity to it...of course if you want (not need )the ability to fine tune...then your original suggestion for the VS is still a good choice, just make sure the filter and your plumbing can handle the pump's max output, otherwise it becomes a restriction and defeats the purpose.
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    +1 on BK's comment about the heater...I missed that
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    Other reason he wants to switch everything to Pentair is you will get the 3 year warranty with it.. If they mix and match you will get a one year warranty...

    You won't be down grading by switching to Pentair just upgrading (IMO)...

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    Quote Originally Posted by Keven

    You won't be down grading by switching to Pentair just upgrading (IMO)...
    Yep
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    Very confused now... PB said he would use a 1.5hp min if we go single speed like we first planned. Seems overkill. Would I be wasting money? He said 3 turnovers per day I think?

    With the solar, that we will be using alot, the low speed of a 2 speed seems useless.

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    Hope you're not feeling overwhelmed, but you DID ask...lol

    To be fair, you should know that all mfgrs offer the 3 year warranty if you use a full set of their equipment, not just Pentair.

    Since all the pump mfgrs get their electric motors from the same sources, and since the motor is the weak point (discounting the permanent magnet technology used in the VSPs that makes it superior to the standard 1 and 2 speed design), they're generally equivalent from that standpoint. The Tristar is a newer design and has a slight edge on hydraulic efficiency, but not much difference except ease of operation. Since the pump will be operated via Control System (PS-8 or Intellitouch), the PS-8 is easier to program and operate (my experience). Since you'll learn either one, you probably won't notice a difference.

    Bottom line, you will likely be happy with either, since you won't be doing a side-by-side comparison, and since both brands offer very good support & same warranties. Make sure you have several options on local warranty service companies for whichever brand you choose.

    On the heater sizing, it depends on what your goal is. Are you getting an attached spa? If you want to heat the entire pool, go with the 400k btu for speed. If you do have a spa, and don't plan on heating the whole pool, go with the 250k btu & save some $$ on initial cost. The Cupro-Nickle exchanger is Standard on the Hayward, and is an upcharge on all other brands. CuproNickle is a blend of copper & nickle which makes the heat exchanger more resistant to erosion from poor water chemistry.

    Filter size - The S200 is pretty darn small, and I wouldn't install it with anything larger than 1 hp pump. Cartridge filters offer the highest flow rates, but you'll have to clean the cartridges 3-4 times a year, depending on your environment. Maybe a 300-400 sq. ft. cartridge - pretty equal between brands.

    VSP is nice, but water flow at the higher speeds will be limited by the size of plumbing and possibly filter size, negating any increase in efficiency that the VSP would offer. I don't see where you mention if you will have an attached spa or not. If no spa is planned, then you'll need larger HP pump for the jets. If pool only, you could also go with a 1.5hp two speed pump and the lower speed will give you plenty of energy savings & save you 4-500 bucks on initial cost.

    If you are now needing a therapist, we can supply references there too...lol

    Good luck!
    APSP CST Certified
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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger987

    If you do have a spa, and don't plan on heating the whole pool, go with the 250k btu & save some $$ on initial cost.
    I'm going to disagree with this completely. The difference in price between 250 and a 400 for just about any brand is going to be around $400. On a new pool build, the builder can probably get the 400 for about the same price.
    On a 20,000 gallon pool, the 250 will take almost 7 hours to heat the pool 10 degrees. A 400 will do it in 4 hours
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    What are you disagreeing with? You made my point. If he's only heating a (700-1000 gal) spa, the 250 will do fine. If he does NOT have a spa, then he would be better off with the 400k for heating the pool.
    APSP CST Certified
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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    Ranger

    I read ur post backwards. But I still disagree. Even with just a spa I'd still get a 400
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    There is absolutely no need for 3 turns a day and 1-1.5 turns is more than enough. Personally, I feel the 1.5hp is overkill (single or two speed), unless you have a very long run from the pool to the house or the solar will be up 3 stories, etc. Also, I don't think you will be using low speed very much anyway if you plan on using the solar most of the season. We only run the pump 4-6hrs max (one turn) and have no problem with water clarity and the pool is surrounded by 60-80ft trees

    Here is a pretty good write-up, that will help you get a better idea of where I'm coming from. Also, I would ask your PB why you need a 1.5hp single speed...I'd would be interested to hear what he comes back with....it could be legitimate for your situation (water features, unusual plumbing run length/height), but I have a feeling for 1.5hp it's too much pump


    http://www.h2otsun.com/pools/index.html

    http://www.h2otsun.com/pumpsize.html

    Again, just my opinion...hopefully we'll have a few folks with more hydraulics experience chime in
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: PB switch from Hayward to Pentair - Help me find equivalents

    Quote Originally Posted by bk406
    Ranger

    I read ur post backwards. But I still disagree. Even with just a spa I'd still get a 400
    Ditto!!

    When you are trying to raise water 30-50 degrees in a short period of time, having the higher BTU is worth it. My kids use the spa in the winter and when the water is at 50 degrees it will take close to an hour to heat up even with a 400k heater.


    Also, I agree with dmanb2b. 1.5 HP is too big unless you are trying to run the spa with it as well but I wouldn't do that either. It is much better to have a dedicated spa jet pump that doesn't go through the pad equipment. Even with solar on a two story house, you can usually get away with the smallest pump possible.
    Mark
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    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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