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Thread: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

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    poolgirl22's Avatar
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    Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    When performing overnight FC loss does the pump need to run?

    I'm doing this tonight because I want to double check that somethings not going on. The past couple days I'm losing 3.5-5 ppm during the day.

    Granted, I get full sun from 9am to 6pm and I've had between 1 and 4 humans, 1 black lab, and the front paws of a jack russel in the pool every day this week and sunscreens. Temps went from rainy and 60s to pushing 90 and sunny. FC has never gotten below my target minimum of 4 and the pool is still crystal clear and sparkling.

    Recent results so I can be accountable to you all:
    FC 9.5 (after last addition. Now, please note that I bumped FC this morning to 12 from 8 after sun was over pool just to give it a little boost in case something was starting, and I was at 6.5 when I added to get to 9 this evening...overshot a bit cuz I just emptied the jug after my measured addition)
    CC O (has been 0 for 3 weeks every time I've checked)
    TC 9.5
    ph 7.5 (held steady for several days.)
    TA 110 (still working it down, but just doing it gradually without aeration)
    CYA 55
    I use pool calculator figures to calculate my ranges.

    I think I'm ok and just entering another phase of learning my pool's behavior, but I just didn't know about the pump running thing. Thanks TFPers...
    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
    16,100 gallon, 18x38 3.5 ft deep oval AG, Vinyl, Sand, 1hp pump
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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    It doesn't have to be, in this particular situation...
    (I'm sure everything's fine - it's probably just the change in variables increasing the demand.)
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    Generally, I would say yes. Simply keeping the water evenly distributed will help you get a more accurate result. It's a good question and one I don't remember seeing too often but it makes sense to have evenly "blended" pool water when performing virtually any test.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    That's what I think too FPM, but you know when that sparklypoolitis sets in, and the family is descending on you in two days, you want to head off any issues right away...and be able to anticipate and bump up the nighttime number if need be...

    thanks Duraleigh..I figured it was worth posing and I couldn't find a quick answer on a search..
    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    BTW, I agree with FPM that, in your case, there's probably nothing going on.

    You have a very good grip on the fundamentals and, if it's not already, your pool will be a diamond very soon!!
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    FC was 8.5, down 1 overnight. Not going to stress over it. May bump up my nighttime target to 10 or 11 this weekend.
    Still no CC.

    Besides I can now move on to another issue...my AC froze up last night.

    Thanks for the reassurance.
    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
    16,100 gallon, 18x38 3.5 ft deep oval AG, Vinyl, Sand, 1hp pump
    http://www.poolservicestech.com Liquidator
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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    I'm convinced in this case it's definitely just related to increased usage, sun, and heat..
    Got the AC fixed and then we lost power from 5pm last night to 5am today (I couldn't win yesterday..) no swimmers yesterday and not as much sun due to rain and overcast skies.
    So I tested the water mid morning today after sun was already over part of the pool, it was clear and sparkly. FC was at 4 (target 4-9) and CCs again 0, and I hadn't added an bleach since Wednesday night. I added to bring it to 9 this morning. This evening it was at 4.5FC and 0 CCs again after all day sun and mid afternoon thru evening human and canine swimming.

    I tested CYA again just to be sure and it's still sitting right between 50-60.

    No wonder I was always on the verge of algae and had cloudy water at times, losing 4.5 ppm a day just to sunlight and bather load...heck, my FC was never above 3 on an average day...
    Thanks TFP for helping me see the light...
    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
    16,100 gallon, 18x38 3.5 ft deep oval AG, Vinyl, Sand, 1hp pump
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    Overnight FC Loss, updated and shocking

    Below is the edited text to some PMs between myself and duraleigh. I thought it would be of benefit to share with the whole. Further discussion can be on this thread. Thanks Dave for the help.
    ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________________
    poolgirl22
    Message subject: my chlorine demand Sent: June 3rd, 2010, 10:22 pm
    I'm still concerned about my daily FC drop. I hate to obsess over this but truly, I wonder if something needs adjusted that's in the 200 level class range, Kwim? I'm highly embarrassed to be so OCD and don't want to post AGAIN on the board if nothing is wrong.
    I'm consistently bringing up at night to 9 (11/12 over the weekend when we had a houseful) FC and by next evening I'm at 4-5.5 even today with only me taking a 15 minute dip and that's it. Less than 1 ppm overnight FC loss. No CCs or .25 at most. Crystal clear, shined like diamonds the last couple days. Very little debris if any. Adding between 3-5 quarts a nite.
    I get full sun from mid morning to well into evening.
    PH is holding steady at 7.5 (should I try to drop it a bit?)
    TA 90 (haven't tried lowering it anymore since PH is holding)
    CYA 55 (retested this week. Should I raise this a bit?)
    Temps holding around 82-84
    I'm confident my gallons are calculated properly because when I add bleach each night it reaches my target or within .5 either way.
    My initial thought is maybe I need to run a little higher CYA..maybe 65-70? I know that puts things into a crazy situation if I should need to shock, but as AR as I am about my additions, I don't see that happening...lol...

    ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ _______
    duraleigh
    Message subject: Re: my chlorine demand Sent: June 3rd, 2010, 11:03 pm
    Well, that's puzzling. Most of the time 2-3ppm is the loss on a balanced pool with sun. I see nothing in your numbers to raise a flag.

    When you dose chlorine in the evening, are you calculating your target or actually testing to see if you got to your target. Bleach not at full strength could cause an issue if you are not testing.
    ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________________
    poolgirl22
    I have been intermittently testing to see if I got to target, and to see if any FC loss. Each time I'm within .5-1 of the target, always over as I sometimes go up to the neck of my measuring bottle rather than right at 32 oz... Our local walmart seems to go through the bleach at a good clip and it's the only place I buy it. Sometimes I have the last 3 or 4 jugs, others, brand new.

    I added to get to 9ppm this evening around 9 oclock and I tested just now at 11pm and got a solid 10 ppm, pump ran whole time inbetween and I even brushed the nothingness that was not there.. Bather load seemed to be the issue over the weekend and last week, but then today when I purposely stalled the days activities and just put myself in for a few minutes it still dropped 5ppm.
    Thanks for the help.
    ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________
    duraleigh
    Well, let's review the very basic premise that FC is consumed by organics and sunlight. It makes very little sense that you live closer to the sun than the rest of us so I think we have to suspect organics, even though your overnite FC loss test demonstrated otherwise.
    The only logic I can offer in suspecting organics is you seem to have eliminated everything else. Because your FC loss is abnormal but only by just a little bit, it could be the vagaries of the FAS/DPD test may have mislead you just a little when doing the loss test. In other words, you may have lost just a little more overnight than you thought.
    I would suggest this...
    Tomorrow night (or whenever) elevate your FC to around 12ppm and then check it next AM. If it's less than 11 then I think we can confirm organics.
    Even if it doesn't drop much, try to hold your FC at 12 for at least 24 hours....48 would be better. In a 24 hour period, given your parameters, I would expect about a 4ppm chlorine loss from 12. I think (because of organics in your pool) it'll lose more like 6 or so but let's see.
    If it does, the answer is to just go ahead and shock again and do the overnight FC loss test probably the second night.
    ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
    poolgirl22
    Message subject: Re: my chlorine demand Sent: June 4th, 2010, 12:05 am

    Sounds good. I'm heading to bed in a few minutes...Its 12 am. I'll bump to 12 before I go and retest in AM around 8am and go from there as you outlined. Thanks for the help. When we figure this out we can move to a thread if you wish for the benefit of the whole.
    ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________
    poolgirl22
    Message subject: Re: my chlorine demand Sent: June 4th, 2010, 8:30 am
    There we have it! I tested at 8am and sure enough I got 10.5, 11, and 10.5. Yep, did the test 3x. So at least 1, but likely 1.5 overnight. **** **** ****. I'm not a happy camper this morning, but I took to 18 anyway. Shock commencing through today, tonight, tomorrow and will retest FC loss saturday nite.
    Lesson learned. For my pool a loss of FC overnight close to 1 means something is definitely up. Off to tennis and buy more bleach...thanks. I'm good from here I think. I know the drill going forward.
    ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ _
    poolgirl22
    Message subject: Re: my chlorine demand Sent: June 4th, 2010, 3:39 pm
    Just an update on how I'm doing.
    I had to buy REAL Clorox today... Wally was out of GV. Anyway, I plan to attach the text of our messages to my last thread where we all thought it was just changes in demand. I think my situation is one that is worth sharing with the whole exemplifying that nothing is static and you HAVE to know your pool in order to manage it properly. I've learned a lot from this experience.

    I know I'm losing a lot to sunlight right now and of course when the kiddo and I were in messing with the steps and the real progress will be made after dark, but I'm a believer in showing how to really stay after this shocking process.
    800am: FC 10.5, added to reach 18 shock level
    845am: FC 17, added to reach 18
    1045am: FC 17, added to reach 18
    1200pm: FC 15, added to reach 18
    (removed stairs, scrubbed down, replaced, brushed pool, kiddo splashed around a bit, cleaned skimmer pieces and parts thoroughly)
    140pm: FC 13.5, added to 18
    315pm: FC 14, added to 18
    There have been no CCs at any time.

    Thanks again. Will see you and others on the thread.
    ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________
    duraleigh
    I don't know if we've discussed this....have you looked under your steps? Inside your ladder? any place organics can hide. White mold gets in there a lot.
    ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ _
    poolgirl22 (received above while typing this post so here's the reply)
    Yep, removed, scrubbed, bleached, scrubbed, drilled more vent holes in steps. No ladder. Other than a little organic staining which was removed with magic eraser and/or bleach, Nothing green. And I usually pour some bleach down inside the steps and I move them daily to eliminate any buildup of stuff. Stairs have always been a pain in the ....
    I've cleaned the skimmer really well too, especially in between dosages of bleach, and have even poured a couple cups directly into the skimmer each time.
    ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________
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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    I'm shocking this. I still don't believe it.
    5pm: FC 16.5, added to 18...
    Stairs and skimmers are the evil dark lords of an otherwise sparkly perfect world....
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
    16,100 gallon, 18x38 3.5 ft deep oval AG, Vinyl, Sand, 1hp pump
    http://www.poolservicestech.com Liquidator
    http://www.poolcalculator.com/
    http://www.tftestkits.net TFT100 test kit

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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    Are the dogs sneaking into the pool without permission and leaving dog hair all over? That could be the organics you are fighting.
    23,000 gallon in ground pool with rock waterfall and spillover spa, Aqualink control system, Polaris 380 cleaner, Purex Triton Clean&Clear Plus cartridge filter. Located in The Woodlands, Texas.

    Pool owner since Nov 2008, Trouble Free since April 2009. Happy to help when I can.

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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    Nope. And I use skimmer socks to catch most of it. I went to the bottom today visually and there's none even sitting on the bottom. Besides...my lab doesn't shed....(if you believe that, well, there's that oceanfront property in Arizona...) Thanks for the suggestion.
    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
    16,100 gallon, 18x38 3.5 ft deep oval AG, Vinyl, Sand, 1hp pump
    http://www.poolservicestech.com Liquidator
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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    Recapping my shocking on Friday:
    800am: FC 10.5, added to reach 18 shock level from pool calculator
    845am: FC 17, added to reach 18
    1045am: FC 17, added to reach 18
    1200pm: FC 15, added to reach 18
    (removed stairs, scrubbed down, replaced, brushed pool, kiddo splashed around a bit, cleaned skimmer pieces and parts thoroughly)
    140pm: FC 13.5, added to 18
    315pm: FC 14, added to 18
    5pm: FC16.5, added to 18
    815pm: FC 16.5, added to 18
    915pm: FC 16.5, added to 18
    1015pm: FC 18, no addition
    1115pm: FC 18, no addition

    And today, Saturday
    7am: FC 16 (Overnight loss of 2), added to 24 (CYA Chart shock level for 60, I'm at 55. Could have done 22 I guess)
    Backwashed and rinsed the filter.
    815am: FC 24 Sweep bottom of some debris
    10:30 am: FC 21, added to 22
    1225 pm: FC 19.5, added to 22
    345pm: FC 17.5, added to 22
    700pm: FC 18, added to 22
    925pm: FC 21, added to 22
    1100pm: FC 22.5, no addition


    Plan today is to not let the FC drop below 18, so I'm going to target 22 in subsequent additions to account for anticipated consumption rates and I'll be getting in later to check on those stairs. DH is here today so we may pull them again and give them another once over. Will keep you updated. If anyone has any other suggestions, please feel free. I'm sharing all this to pay forward what I've learned.

    Edited: just adding today's progress in this post....
    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
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    Sunday progress

    11pm Saturday, FC 22.5 no addition.

    Sunday
    6am: FC 20 (loss of 2.5 overnite, booooo!!!), added to 24. Going that route today
    10am: FC 21, added to 24
    Stairs have now been removed completely. There isn't a speck of anything on them anywhere, not even a slimy spot.
    Brushed pool, changed skimmer socks again.
    Water is crystal clear. And CCs 0.
    1140am: FC 21, added to 24
    12:25pm: FC23.5, added to 24
    135pm: FC 20, added to 24
    515pm: FC 20, added to 24
    730pm: FC 21.5, added to 24
    Scrubbed stairs again, removed railing pieces for now since there's places that something could hide, replaced stairs without railing
    845pm: FC 24.5, no addition
    10:00pm: FC 24, no addition and last check for tonight.
    I'm having POP for breakfast, but I tell you this is frustrating. If the pool didn't look so darn good, it wouldn't frustrate me so much.

    I've bumped the shock level up to the CYA chart 22 yesterday for CYA of 55 (which is my level) and was able to maintain all day at 18 shock value from pool calculator all day yesterday. Today I'll hit it with a 24 which is for CYA of 60 and see what happens.

    I'm getting a little black greasy filmy stuff in the skimmer at the water line which I'm wiping away frequently. But there is nothing on the walls, water line, nothing.

    Any other suggestions or just stay the course? I will post my progress today in this post.
    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    I'm getting a little black greasy filmy stuff in the skimmer at the water line which I'm wiping away frequently.
    I'm a little surprised your high level of FC doesn't take care of that before it ever deposits. Is this just recently or has it been happening all along?
    Dave S.
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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    I always have that. I assumed it was just the heavy duty sunblocks we use. Photo below. Its not too bad but a couple times a day when I clean off the skimmer socks I just wipe it out.

    Also proof I'm sparkly!

    Edit: At 1140 am FC 21 adding to 24 again.
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    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    I can't help wondering if your getting some sort of dropping into your pool overnight which is the cause of your FC drop. Do you have any overhanging trees where birds may be?

    Ike
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    I wish that seemed the case. Then there'd be an explanation. But, no trees. Grackles are at the tail end of their escapades and I scoop it out as soon as I see the dropping. Had 1 dropping yesterday afternoon and I removed it in whole. There was nothing on the bottom today. I brush and there is nothing stirring.
    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    Day's tests and adds are in above post.
    Just a note.... I take my samples from the same place every time, which is the side of the pool down a foot or so. Should I change locations or be by the skimmer or outlet rather than the side away from all that? My jet shoots to the middle of the pool.

    I add into the return jet.

    Heading elsewhere for a barbecue so I won't be checking hourly for awhile, but the sun's my foe right now.
    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
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    MONDAY

    7am: FC 22, added to 24 (Overnight loss 2)


    Attached is the black gunk in the skimmer since 10 last night. Will post here throughout the day. Staying the course to target 24.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
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    http://www.poolservicestech.com Liquidator
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    http://www.tftestkits.net TFT100 test kit

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    Re: Overnight FC loss confirm something?

    I've been following this all along and you have a great amount of patience. I have no idea what the black stuff is but it's very odd that as much cleaning and brushing and shocking as you have done that anything could be left in there. It really seems that something is getting in there overnight.

    Also, one other thought. I noticed your tests were posted as being at 7am. I know around here that by 7 am the sun is on the pool and eating FC. The reason I bring this up is that a friend was trying to do the overnight test and wasn't waiting until it was dark out at night and was waiting a little too late in the morning and had a loss when I knew she shouldn't have. I got her to test just after dark and the next morning before the sun was up at all, and she passed the first night she did that.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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