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Thread: How to treat this? Pictures included

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    HardTrance9's Avatar
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    How to treat this? Pictures included

    Hi,

    Some days ago I was talking about one pool (the one labeled on my signature as "GM") with some sort of algae problem, but principally a problem on the walls where the algae seems to be very difficult to remove.

    One suggestion we got was to drain all the water from the pool, and then use some acid? to brush and remove the algae from the walls.

    Do you think this should be done independetly of testing the water and getting the chem numbers, etc.?

    Or just by testing the water, and shocking the pool you can get rid of the problem with the walls?

    I am still waiting for the TF-100. Should arrive soon, but until then I am wondering if this "cleaning" with acid (what kind of acid??) could work to get rid of the algae?

    I am attaching some pictures. Will take better pictures today and will post them too. These were taken with my cell phone.

    Thanks for any suggestions.
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    In charge of some SWG and Bleach pools... still a newbie..

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    It's hard to tell from the pics but I suspect proper shocking and chlorine levels, along with brushing, will do the trick. I'd certainly try that before resorting to an acid wash.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    I agree with FPM that chlorine will cure the problems but we really need your test results to make sure we help you get it fixed as quickly and cheaply as possible. My guess is you will find the CYA through the roof but let's wait for the test results?

    How has that pool been chlorinated?

    Have you been reading Pool School (ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry) in preparation for your testing?
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Hello,

    Thanks for your comments. Yes I am still waiting for the test kit to arrive (TF-100, shipped this Monday) so I can measure correctly and post the results.

    I have better pictures now where you can see why I was commenting on the acid treatment no matter we have to empty the pool (we don't have a problem on having emptied the pool if that could help removing what is on the walls).

    You can see the different color on the walls. Do you think that could be removed? I call that surface plaster, but don't know if I am right.

    Today I tested the water and got with no sun at all for the last three days and heavy rain like at 3 am:

    pH: 6.8
    TC: OTO (chlorine/bromine): 3.0

    What was done on Monday was to put a chlorine tablet (round heavy) on the filter and set up the chlorinator up to 80% (usually is on 60%) and we got today those results.

    Today is sunny again (storm "Rick" already gone) so we are sure that the OTO level will drop quickly as before so we will test again in some 5 hours and will probably put the chlorinator back to 60%. Unfortunately we can only measure this two indicators, OTO and pH, for now (until the kit arrives)

    And yes, we have been reading the Pool School section preparing for when the kit arrives, but if you have any special issue you want to mention so we won't forget I would appreciate it very much too..

    For instance there is a paragraph there that says it all I think:

    You can not use the OTO test, or other tests that only measure TC, when you have algae or certain other problems. Anything that might cause the CC level to be above zero, such as algae, makes the TC level different from the FC level. In these situations, TC is useless on its own.

    So I guess our testing or any counter measure are kind of useless for now...
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    In charge of some SWG and Bleach pools... still a newbie..

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    The pH test (which is probably pretty accurate) indicates your pH needs to come up a little. Let's confirm it with the TF-100 but you should be prepared to raise the pH with a little bit of borax.

    Here in the US borax is easiest to find in the grocery store with the laundry detergents.....20 Mule Teasm Borax is the common brand here in the US.

    You should also be prepared to shock the pool with VERY heavy doses of chlorine. Liquid chlorine is best if you can find it at a pool store. If not, plain laundry bleach (Clorox) is the next best thing....always check the percentage strength when you buy.....6% for Clorox.....other brands may be less.

    YOu will use more chlorine than you would have ever thought possible so (don't buy it yet, just be prepared) plan on buying 50 gallons minimum.....none of it will go to waste.

    When your kit arrives, do the tests per the instructions (ask questions here on the forum for any help you need) and then post the results like this...

    Results using TF-100

    pH=
    FC= (be sure to use the FAS/DPD chlorine test)
    CC=
    TA=
    CH=
    CYA=

    Once your test results are up we'll all chip in to help you get that pool crystal clear.

    You may have said it before, but what type of filter does that pool have? Also, repost the correct gallons so we won't get it mixed up with the other pool sizes.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Many thanks for your reply Dave!

    I feel less stressed now! Now I feel I have a plan and that works a lot for me, specially the "pre" steps.

    Interesting to know about the gallons I could possible use. That's a lot. We'll see after the test.

    I thought that pool clearness was normal.. with the sun it gets more clear.. but can't tell really if it can get better.

    We haven't seen any Borax so far over the grocery stores down here in this little town where we are located (we are a little far from the main Los Cabos area). We have seen Muriatic Acid and stuff like that but not Borax. Is there any thing else we could use instead of Borax or Borax is a must? If it's a must I think I can get it in the bigger places/stores (1 hour drive), but that won't be a problem. Soda Ash could work? There is soda ash here.

    Thanks for the chlorine explanation (Clorox, liquid, etc.)

    The capacity of the pool is 10,028 gallons, kind of a triangular shape.
    This pool uses a Sand Filter (same as the one shown on the http://Visual Encyclopedia <a href="...yclopedia</a>)

    We just set the chlorinator to 60% and the pH was still low and the OTO was 3.0 still.

    Hope to be able to post soon the results...
    In charge of some SWG and Bleach pools... still a newbie..

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    We haven't seen any Borax so far over the grocery stores down here in this little town where we are located (we are a little far from the main Los Cabos area). We have seen Muriatic Acid and stuff like that but not Borax. Is there any thing else we could use instead of Borax or Borax is a must? If it's a must I think I can get it in the bigger places/stores (1 hour drive), but that won't be a problem. Soda Ash could work? There is soda ash here.
    If using soda ash instead of borax, you'd use half as much... but it would also increase Total Alkalinity (TA) about 3 times as much as borax. So, you'd want to check your TA ppm before committing yourself to substitution.
    14,555 gal in-ground 16'x29' white plaster Pool w/spa (2007); Goldline Aqua Logic AQL-PS-8 control w/Aqua Cell 15 Salt Water Chlorination (SWCG); Hayward TriStar 1HP (1.85 SF) main / 1.5HP (1.60 SF) spa pumps; Hayward Swimclear cart filter C4025, ColorLogic LED lights; Tankless SP-18-4 electric heater; Polaris 280 cleaner.
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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Hello again,

    The TF-100 arrived today finally with the extra Salt strip bottle. Great box!

    So this pool, 10,028 gallons aprox., SWG, (first on my signature, pictures on next post) looked clearer today, but not as it should be yet.

    Here are the tests results:

    FC: 8.5
    CC: none (it didn't change color when adding the drops; it stayed white)
    TC: don't know what figure goes here
    pH: I think is below 6.8 (see picture below)
    T/A: 20
    CH: 330
    CYA: +100?? (see picture below)
    Temp: unable to measure it still
    Salt: 2,490

    We stopped adding chlorine about 1.5-2 weeks ago and seems is still high? (no clue if what I am saying is correct)

    Primary objectives are (apart from balancing the chems, etc.):

    1) How to remove the wall "things". Brushing seems to help very little
    2) How to (if possible) to clear the water a little more
    3) How does the multiport valve (hayward) should be set up? right now has been on filtration (pictures on next post)

    Using this test kit is very enjoyable and fun! (so far)

    Thank you all for your help.

    More pics below
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    In charge of some SWG and Bleach pools... still a newbie..

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    More pics of the trouble pool so far..

    The multi valve is still on filtration, but I think it should be on other settings...

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    In charge of some SWG and Bleach pools... still a newbie..

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Quote Originally Posted by HardTrance9
    FC: 8.5
    CC: none (it didn't change color when adding the drops; it stayed white)
    TC: don't know what figure goes here
    pH: I think is below 6.8 (see picture below)
    T/A: 20
    CH: 330
    CYA: +100?? (see picture below)
    Temp: unable to measure it still
    Salt: 2,490
    Dave's prediction from an earlier post that the CYA would be "through the roof" has proven correct. I wouldn't treat this pool for algea until 1/2 or more of the water was drained -- the CYA should be brought down to no more than 80 ppm. Personally, if I suspected algae, I'd would want it even lower before I began shocking.
    14,555 gal in-ground 16'x29' white plaster Pool w/spa (2007); Goldline Aqua Logic AQL-PS-8 control w/Aqua Cell 15 Salt Water Chlorination (SWCG); Hayward TriStar 1HP (1.85 SF) main / 1.5HP (1.60 SF) spa pumps; Hayward Swimclear cart filter C4025, ColorLogic LED lights; Tankless SP-18-4 electric heater; Polaris 280 cleaner.
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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    HT9,

    Yeah you're gonna' have to get rid of a lot of the CYA before you can effectively manage that pool.

    In an earlier post, I think you said you cannot get 20 mule team borax at the store but you could find soda ash. If so, you need to bring your pH w-a-a-y up. Use Jason's calculator and add enough assuming you current pH is 6.8. It's lower than that but I'd like to see you raise pH so you don't overshoot. You may find you have to add soda ash even more than twice but assume your current pH is 6.8 until that test comes into acceptable numbers. 7.5 is perfect but anything in the 7's is workable. (your TA will come up as well and that's good.

    BTW, very nice pictures....they help a lot..... I'm not sure I've ever seen a pH result that low.

    I'm not exactly sure why your pool is somewhat "milky" but I am confident we can get it sparkling.

    As is commonly the case, it looks like the use of the pucks (tabs) has driven your CYA (and your pH) to unmanageable levels. You need to devise an alternate way to chlorinate the pool.


    So, I would.......

    1. drain off some of your pool and refill with fresh to get your CYA down around 50.

    2. Adjust your pH into the 7's (which will bring your TA up as well.

    3. Get those two accomplished and then please post another set of tests and we'll get that pool crystal clear.

    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Hi!

    Just a quick check, the TA test didn't turn immediately red when you added the R008? (did you add 2 drops ofthe R009, sulfuric acid, to reach the endpoint?)

    As Dave said, your pH is lower than 6.8 - I'm trying to gauge how much lower and the TA test can reveal several orders of magnitude on the pH You really want to get the pH up to a readable level before you have serious damage
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Quote Originally Posted by waste
    Hi!

    Just a quick check, the TA test didn't turn immediately red when you added the R008? (did you add 2 drops ofthe R009, sulfuric acid, to reach the endpoint?)

    As Dave said, your pH is lower than 6.8 - I'm trying to gauge how much lower and the TA test can reveal several orders of magnitude on the pH You really want to get the pH up to a readable level before you have serious damage
    Hello,

    Mmmmm I don't remember quite well about this, but I don't recall the TA test turning red after the R008. It turned immediately red after adding 2 drops of the R0009.

    At this point what would be the consequences if someone would like to swim in this pool?
    In charge of some SWG and Bleach pools... still a newbie..

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    HT9,

    Yeah you're gonna' have to get rid of a lot of the CYA before you can effectively manage that pool.

    In an earlier post, I think you said you cannot get 20 mule team borax at the store but you could find soda ash. If so, you need to bring your pH w-a-a-y up. Use Jason's calculator and add enough assuming you current pH is 6.8. It's lower than that but I'd like to see you raise pH so you don't overshoot. You may find you have to add soda ash even more than twice but assume your current pH is 6.8 until that test comes into acceptable numbers. 7.5 is perfect but anything in the 7's is workable. (your TA will come up as well and that's good.

    BTW, very nice pictures....they help a lot..... I'm not sure I've ever seen a pH result that low.

    I'm not exactly sure why your pool is somewhat "milky" but I am confident we can get it sparkling.

    As is commonly the case, it looks like the use of the pucks (tabs) has driven your CYA (and your pH) to unmanageable levels. You need to devise an alternate way to chlorinate the pool.


    So, I would.......

    1. drain off some of your pool and refill with fresh to get your CYA down around 50.

    2. Adjust your pH into the 7's (which will bring your TA up as well.

    3. Get those two accomplished and then please post another set of tests and we'll get that pool crystal clear.

    Thanks Dave,

    One two questions:

    1) How to I get the CC number?
    2) With this numbers you can say that the chlorine level is too high for swimming at all right?

    Should I consider your three steps as final? If so, how much should we drain (in % or in gallons) from the pool?

    I will check I there is the Borax at the stores and if not, then will check the Ash Soda presentation we can find here.

    If we drain the pool, should we consider applying any special chem o liquid for brushing better the walls and remove that kind of stain?

    Lately we haven't had any algae anymore. I guess it's because we added a lot of chlorine before.

    You all guys are great.. will keep reading to try to get rid of this issue ..

    In charge of some SWG and Bleach pools... still a newbie..

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Quote Originally Posted by HardTrance9
    Quote Originally Posted by waste
    Hi!

    Just a quick check, the TA test didn't turn immediately red when you added the R008? (did you add 2 drops ofthe R009, sulfuric acid, to reach the endpoint?)

    As Dave said, your pH is lower than 6.8 - I'm trying to gauge how much lower and the TA test can reveal several orders of magnitude on the pH You really want to get the pH up to a readable level before you have serious damage
    Hello,

    Mmmmm I don't remember quite well about this, but I don't recall the TA test turning red after the R008. It turned immediately red after adding 2 drops of the R0009.

    At this point what would be the consequences if someone would like to swim in this pool?
    Oh, they'd instantly go blind The water would be quite acidic and if they opened their eyes underwater, it would probably sting for a while But that acidic water is attacking your pool surface and any metal in the plumbing system

    It's not linear, but I would suspect that your pH is ~5, again, please raise that ASAP!, even if you plan to dump 1/2 the water (as you should). Have you te4sted the chemistry of the fill water you'll use (you should )

    FC + CC = TC so if your fc is 8.5 and you have 0 cc your tc = 8.5
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Quote Originally Posted by waste

    Oh, they'd instantly go blind The water would be quite acidic and if they opened their eyes underwater, it would probably sting for a while But that acidic water is attacking your pool surface and any metal in the plumbing system

    It's not linear, but I would suspect that your pH is ~5, again, please raise that ASAP!, even if you plan to dump 1/2 the water (as you should). Have you te4sted the chemistry of the fill water you'll use (you should )

    FC + CC = TC so if your fc is 8.5 and you have 0 cc your tc = 8.5
    Thanks!

    I will try to go with raising the pH asap.

    If I test the filling water, what should I test on it? everything? Just open the water/hose fill up a big bottle and use it for testing? Or should I just test some indicators on it?

    Thanks for the FC + CC hehe... was easy, just thought there was more complication on this..

    Later on will go to the calculators ...first need to know what I can find over here..
    In charge of some SWG and Bleach pools... still a newbie..

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Should I consider your three steps as final?
    Unfortunately, no. You'll have more to do but we have to get your pH up first and then get your CYA reduced down.

    You've got a lot to fix so don't try to do everything at once.....lets get those two fixed ASAP then we can work on clearing the pool. Read Pool School....virtually everything we say to you is up there in Pool School.

    If you use soda ash, your TA will come up with the pH. If you use 20 Mule Team Borax, your TA will have to be adjusted later. I do not want to confuse the issue by trying to have you correct everything at once but, rather, in the order of importance. Fix those two (pH and CYA) and then post your test resuilts so we can work on a few more things.

    You have a lot of "fixing" to do.....be patient and take it just a couple of steps at a time.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    Should I consider your three steps as final?
    Unfortunately, no. You'll have more to do but we have to get your pH up first and then get your CYA reduced down.

    You've got a lot to fix so don't try to do everything at once.....lets get those two fixed ASAP then we can work on clearing the pool. Read Pool School....virtually everything we say to you is up there in Pool School.

    If you use soda ash, your TA will come up with the pH. If you use 20 Mule Team Borax, your TA will have to be adjusted later. I do not want to confuse the issue by trying to have you correct everything at once but, rather, in the order of importance. Fix those two (pH and CYA) and then post your test resuilts so we can work on a few more things.

    You have a lot of "fixing" to do.....be patient and take it just a couple of steps at a time.
    Ok will do!

    I guess my only question left for now is about the multi port valve? Is it right where it is right now? on "filtration" mode?

    Just want to be sure that this doesn't affect what we are going to do to fix the pool.

    Thanks again. Trying to find borax or soda ash still... (two main stores and nothing.. hardware stores over here usually have them.. that's next later on)
    In charge of some SWG and Bleach pools... still a newbie..

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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Quote Originally Posted by HardTrance9
    If I test the filling water, what should I test on it? everything?

    Test everything in your fill water. When you post these tests along with pool water test results, label them "Fill Water" and "Pool Water".

    Just open the water/hose fill up a big bottle and use it for testing?

    YES

    Your multi-port setting is right for normal pool operation. If you change this while draining the pool water, after refill, reset the multi-port valve to Filter (Filtration).

    • To summarize recommendations:


    • 1. Increase pH of the pool water to at least 7.0 with Borax or Soda Ash

      2. Drain water, then refill to lower CYA to around 50 ppm (but no more than 80 ppm)

      3. Test pool water and post results

      4. Test fill water and post results


    14,555 gal in-ground 16'x29' white plaster Pool w/spa (2007); Goldline Aqua Logic AQL-PS-8 control w/Aqua Cell 15 Salt Water Chlorination (SWCG); Hayward TriStar 1HP (1.85 SF) main / 1.5HP (1.60 SF) spa pumps; Hayward Swimclear cart filter C4025, ColorLogic LED lights; Tankless SP-18-4 electric heater; Polaris 280 cleaner.
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    Re: How to treat this? Pictures included

    Excellent. Many thanks Poluvye..

    I just returned from all the stores around here (would need to try Sam's or Costco I guess, but they are far away)...
    and here they don't sell Soda Ash or Borax at all. The Soda Ash I had before was a bottle from a friend who no longer has soda ash.

    I can get Baking Soda for sure.

    But I was reviewing the Pool Calculator and according to all the numbers, to raise up pH by 1.15 and TA by 37, I would need to add 1,500 g. of soda ash.

    If I add double of this but with baking soda, then we won't get that much improvement: by adding 3,000 g. of baking soda then the TA raises by 47 but the pH raises only by 0.1 ! (pool calculator)

    If we are not able to get borax or soda ash here, is there any other way we could treat this? I still have to check with other provider which is a couple of hours from where we are located. Just want to have a backup plan in case.

    I think we can get the soda ash at Costco, but not sure.

    Thanks!
    In charge of some SWG and Bleach pools... still a newbie..

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