$17.98 for 2 pack of HDX chlorine from home depot.

[Gary Davis]

Your electricity costs would depend on your pump, and your rates which you provided.

I want to say that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to SWCG but I do know California electricity rates.
I think we can safely say California electricity rates are somewhere between 35 and 40 cents per kilowatt-hour, on average.
I don't know what other states are in terms of electricity rates, but I suspect California is on the high end (by a lot), is it not?
That means electricity, if it's increased when a SWCG is put in, is a factor that may need to be considered in the total cost equation.

The electricity used depends on the HP of the pumps.

I don't know much about the pumps as I almost never use them (so I took a picture of the spec plate and posted it below).

The pumps are the AO Smith QC1102 single-speed model (about two decades old) and they are listed as 1 HP but they also have a 1.0 x 1.65 service factor so maybe I should call it a 1-1/2 horsepower 220VAC pump? I don't know.

The amps are written as 16/8 so am I to assume it's 8amps for me since they're wired at 220VAC?

Googling for how to calculate the electricity consumed I found this explanation which I will run for just one of my two pumps.

1. Multiply the volts times amps to get watts
   • (their example) 230 volts x 9.0 amps = 2,070 watts
   • (my example) 230 volts x 8.0 amps = 1,840 watts
2. Divide by 1,000 to arrive at KWh
   • (their example) 2,070/1,000 = 2.070 KWh
   • (my example) 1,840/1,000 = 1.840 KWh
3. Multiply by the numbers of hours per day pump is operating
   • (their example) 2.070 KWh x ~12 hours = ~24.84 KWh per day
   • (my example) 1.840 KWh x ~12 hours = ~22.08 KWh per day
4. Multiply by cost per KWh by the KWh for daily cost
   • (their example) = 24.84 KWh x ~.15 = ~$3.73 per day
   • (my example) = 22.08 KWh x ~.40 = ~$8.83 per day
5. Multiply by 30 for the monthly cost
   • (their example) $3.73 per day x 30 days = ~$112/month
   • (my example) $8.83 per day x 30 days = ~$265/month

Of course, I don't even know how much (if any) a SWCG increases pump usage, which is the key factor, especially since my pool requires two pumps to work.

Given the pool has one pump for both the skimmers and popups (which are unfiltered) and another pump for the filtration, the cost is somewhere more than that but I don't know if the SWCG would be attached to the popup/skimmer or filtration pump (both of which are exactly the same).

The SWG itself uses $414 worth of electricity to create the 580 pounds of chlorine that my SWG cell is rated for, so basically the life of cell.
My electricity costs is 25 cents per kWH, so less than your rates. Figure you'd pay about $600 for the electricity for the SWG plus cost of running the pump.

That's a good number since we can take your rate of around $400 and mine of around $600 to average to about $500.
Given we want to be useful to everyone who reads this, is about $500/year on average a good-enough number to use for the additional electrical cost of adding SWCG?

LA DWP had a great rebate to convert to a VSP, does your electric company offer a rebate?

I don't know as the solution I use to high electrical rates is to use less electricity and more elbow grease to take care of the pool.

• I brush the floor to push bottom debris to the deep end (wide steel brush on a pole)
• I then skim the surface manually (wide skimmer on a pole) because brushing kicks up debris in the shallow end
• When the dust settles, I vacuum the deep end floor manually (six-inch garden hose type on a pole with a bag)
• When I add chemicals, I brush the floor a bit to stir up the water (plus I dilute like crazy - much more than most people do)

I do know that it's illegal for a professional to put a single-speed pump in pools in California, but that I'm told I can do whatever I want as the homeowner, and I would be the one doing all the work but I am told that variable speed pumps are the way to go so if I replaced the pumps, that's what I'd use.

The real problem is the capital needed, but of course, I can look out five years (or so) to find a break-even point where you save money in the end.

• That's really the answer to the SWCG question I'm after.
• Does SWCG save money in the end, or not?

If the SWCG consumes ADDITIONAL electricity, then that has to be accounted for (e.g., heat doesn't ever come for free).

Other solutions, of course, for the high electrical rates are solar - but I don't have the capital for that and I don't have the right kind of roof either for the ones that someone else puts in for you; so it has to be on the ground.

And of course, I can invest capital in variable speed motors (of which I have three motors to replace, one for the spa, but which I never use).
If they have variable speed SOLAR powered 1.5 HP pump motors... that might be the way to go (do they exist?).

But all I want to arrive at for a SWCG calculation is how much more does SWCG cost in electricity over the expected lifetime.
That's all.

Do you have to run both pumps, or can you just run the circulation pump?

When I bought the house, they said to run the skimmer/popup pump half the time that I run the filtration pump.

The skimmer/popup water is unfiltered (except for baskets) where it's pulled out of the two skimmers at the surface and then it goes to the pump and then from the pump it goes to the water valve space ship which is the set of controls as not all popups work at the same time and from there it goes to the popups in the floor of the pool to circulate the water in a series of a few jets at a time, which rotate on their own over time.

The filtration pump setup is much simpler as it merely takes the water from the floor of the spa and the floor of the deep end and then it goes to the pump and then to the filter space ship and then back to the surface via jets at the deep end and inside the spa (each set controlled by a jandy valve that diverts the return flow as desired).

If you just needed one to circulate water for the SWG, and you convert to VSP, might still save money.

The word "circulate" is complicated in this situation because the popups actually do all the circulation but none of the filtration.
I don't know how a SWCG would be inserted into a self-cleaning arrangement such as mine is.

• Does a SWCG get inserted into the filtration system or into the circulation system?

 

[Gary Davis]

A SWG uses about 150 watts, so about 5 cents per hour (at $0.34 per kilowatt-hour), $1.22 per day or $36.72 per 30 days running continuously.

Thank you for those numbers as that's really all I was asking for which is how much does the ADDITIONAL electricity cost for a SWCG over its lifetime, and if that number is appreciable, then it should simply be factored into the cost calculations.

Below is a photo of my electricity bill where you can see it gets complicated how much to use, so if I use 40 cents per kilowatt-hour, the math becomes:

• (your example) $0.34 per kilowatt-hour x 150 Watts (divided by 1,000 for KW) x 24 hours x 30 days = $36.72 per month (running continuously)
• (my example) $0.40 per kilowatt-hour x 150 Watts (divided by 1,000 for KW) x 24 hours x 30 days = $43.20 per month (running continuously)

That comes to about $500 per year for the added electricity costs of running a SWCG, if I did the math correctly.
If that's a reasonable number, then we can go with that for most people (although I see much higher SWCG electrical costs in the other posts).

I added a photo of the sum total of the chemicals I use, which amount to only four of them, one of which, the liquid chlorine, I stock in large quantities for the obvious reason that I only visit the pool store once in a great while (and yes, I know it degrades over time).

 

[JamesW]

That comes to about $500 per year for the added electricity costs of running a SWCG, if I did the math correctly.

Most pools won't require the SWG to run continuously 24/7 at 100%.

Probably, on average, maybe 1/4 of that for most pools.

 

[Newdude]

+1. My usual production curve to match the seasonal daily loss goes 10%/20%/40%/60%/40%/20%/10%.

Every season is different and any stop may last 2 weeks to 6 weeks.

 

[randytsuch]

For my calcs, I used 26.3 VDC X 7 amps = 184 watts or .184 kW.
Numbers were based on what I saw on my SWG. Although may you need a little more power as it ages? Would not change the cost by much if it did.
assumed running SWG for 10 hours a day, at 25 cents/kW hr, comes out to $13.84 / month to run the SWG.
Then I assumed running 6 months out of the year, and that it would last 5 years. That came out to $414 for electricity to run the SWG for its life.
If I was $100 off, it changes the cost per gal of Cl by 14 cents in my model

I didn't change my pump run times, so didn't add any electricity costs for the pump. And my VSP only uses around 70 watts, so run cost is pretty low.

BTW, I found a calculation I did for a 1.5hp pump. I think it uses 1100 watts. Based on a 8 hour day, year around, it would cost $800 to run at 25 cents/kW hr
Compared to $50 per year for my vsp.

 

[randytsuch]

I want to say that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to SWCG but I do know California electricity rates.
I think we can safely say California electricity rates are somewhere between 35 and 40 cents per kilowatt-hour, on average.
I don't know what other states are in terms of electricity rates, but I suspect California is on the high end (by a lot), is it not?
That means electricity, if it's increased when a SWCG is put in, is a factor that may need to be considered in the total cost equation.

I don't know much about the pumps as I almost never use them (so I took a picture of the spec plate and posted it below).

The pumps are the AO Smith QC1102 single-speed model (about two decades old) and they are listed as 1 HP but they also have a 1.0 x 1.65 service factor so maybe I should call it a 1-1/2 horsepower 220VAC pump? I don't know.

The amps are written as 16/8 so am I to assume it's 8amps for me since they're wired at 220VAC?

Googling for how to calculate the electricity consumed I found this explanation which I will run for just one of my two pumps.

1. Multiply the volts times amps to get watts
   • (their example) 230 volts x 9.0 amps = 2,070 watts
   • (my example) 230 volts x 8.0 amps = 1,840 watts
2. Divide by 1,000 to arrive at KWh
   • (their example) 2,070/1,000 = 2.070 KWh
   • (my example) 1,840/1,000 = 1.840 KWh
3. Multiply by the numbers of hours per day pump is operating
   • (their example) 2.070 KWh x ~12 hours = ~24.84 KWh per day
   • (my example) 1.840 KWh x ~12 hours = ~22.08 KWh per day
4. Multiply by cost per KWh by the KWh for daily cost
   • (their example) = 24.84 KWh x ~.15 = ~$3.73 per day
   • (my example) = 22.08 KWh x ~.40 = ~$8.83 per day
5. Multiply by 30 for the monthly cost
   • (their example) $3.73 per day x 30 days = ~$112/month
   • (my example) $8.83 per day x 30 days = ~$265/month

Of course, I don't even know how much (if any) a SWCG increases pump usage, which is the key factor, especially since my pool requires two pumps to work.

Given the pool has one pump for both the skimmers and popups (which are unfiltered) and another pump for the filtration, the cost is somewhere more than that but I don't know if the SWCG would be attached to the popup/skimmer or filtration pump (both of which are exactly the same).


That's a good number since we can take your rate of around $400 and mine of around $600 to average to about $500.
Given we want to be useful to everyone who reads this, is about $500/year on average a good-enough number to use for the additional electrical cost of adding SWCG?

I don't know as the solution I use to high electrical rates is to use less electricity and more elbow grease to take care of the pool.

• I brush the floor to push bottom debris to the deep end (wide steel brush on a pole)
• I then skim the surface manually (wide skimmer on a pole) because brushing kicks up debris in the shallow end
• When the dust settles, I vacuum the deep end floor manually (six-inch garden hose type on a pole with a bag)
• When I add chemicals, I brush the floor a bit to stir up the water (plus I dilute like crazy - much more than most people do)

I do know that it's illegal for a professional to put a single-speed pump in pools in California, but that I'm told I can do whatever I want as the homeowner, and I would be the one doing all the work but I am told that variable speed pumps are the way to go so if I replaced the pumps, that's what I'd use.

The real problem is the capital needed, but of course, I can look out five years (or so) to find a break-even point where you save money in the end.

• That's really the answer to the SWCG question I'm after.
• Does SWCG save money in the end, or not?

If the SWCG consumes ADDITIONAL electricity, then that has to be accounted for (e.g., heat doesn't ever come for free).

Other solutions, of course, for the high electrical rates are solar - but I don't have the capital for that and I don't have the right kind of roof either for the ones that someone else puts in for you; so it has to be on the ground.

And of course, I can invest capital in variable speed motors (of which I have three motors to replace, one for the spa, but which I never use).
If they have variable speed SOLAR powered 1.5 HP pump motors... that might be the way to go (do they exist?).

But all I want to arrive at for a SWCG calculation is how much more does SWCG cost in electricity over the expected lifetime.
That's all.

When I bought the house, they said to run the skimmer/popup pump half the time that I run the filtration pump.

The skimmer/popup water is unfiltered (except for baskets) where it's pulled out of the two skimmers at the surface and then it goes to the pump and then from the pump it goes to the water valve space ship which is the set of controls as not all popups work at the same time and from there it goes to the popups in the floor of the pool to circulate the water in a series of a few jets at a time, which rotate on their own over time.

The filtration pump setup is much simpler as it merely takes the water from the floor of the spa and the floor of the deep end and then it goes to the pump and then to the filter space ship and then back to the surface via jets at the deep end and inside the spa (each set controlled by a jandy valve that diverts the return flow as desired).

The word "circulate" is complicated in this situation because the popups actually do all the circulation but none of the filtration.
I don't know how a SWCG would be inserted into a self-cleaning arrangement such as mine is.

• Does a SWCG get inserted into the filtration system or into the circulation system?

So I'm no expert, but with what you described, I think you could change your filtration pump to a VSP, and use that for the SWG.
EDIT: You don't have to replace all three pumps, replace the one that is run the most, which would be the filtration pump. That's where you will get the most bang for your buck.

The SWG wants to be last thing in the line, so after the pump, filter and heater (if you have one).

Your cleaner/skimmer pump system would be independent of the SWG.

At least that's what I would do.

 

[Gary Davis]

The SWG wants to be last thing in the line, so after the pump, filter and heater (if you have one).
Your cleaner/skimmer pump system would be independent of the SWG.

Thanks for that advice, as yes, there are three pumps, but I don't ever use the spa pump, and yes, there is a heater, two of them in fact, and I don't use either of them (for different reasons), so all that matters is the cleaner/skimmer and the filtration - where it's nice to know the SWCG wants to be last in line (on the filter circuit).

The filter circuit is, starting from the pool itself

1. bottom floor (and wall safety) drains at the pool deep end & spa floor
2. large debris basket on the deck (but no debris basket exists for the spa)
3. filter pump (which includes its own debris basket) with jandy valves from spa & pool
4. filter
5. solar heater (can be jandy valved out of the loop)
6. propane heater (can NOT be jandy valved out of the loop)
7. back to the pool via inch-wide wall openings in the pool & spa (with spa & pool jandy valves)

From what you advised me, the SWCG would go between #6 and #7, right?

 

[Saturn94]

Some of the figures I see in this thread seem way out of wack.

While I don’t know the details of how much electricity each piece of equipment uses, running our pool adds about $30-$40 a month to our total electric bill. That’s running a single speed 1hp pump 10hrs a day, a SWCG set to around 60%, and running a pressure cleaner booster pump about 10hrs or so a week. I suspect the vast majority of the cost is from the single speed pump.

Something I didn’t see mentioned when considering the total cost to own a SWCG vs manual chlorination methods, is the total transportation costs to get liquid chlorine, tabs, etc (gas, auto maintenance, wear and tear on the vehicle, etc.).

Something else….I don’t think I’ve seen a single post from someone saying they quit using a SWCG because the operating costs was so much higher than manual chlorination.

 

[randytsuch]

Thanks for that advice, as yes, there are three pumps, but I don't ever use the spa pump, and yes, there is a heater, two of them in fact, and I don't use either of them (for different reasons), so all that matters is the cleaner/skimmer and the filtration - where it's nice to know the SWCG wants to be last in line (on the filter circuit).

The filter circuit is, starting from the pool itself

1. bottom floor (and wall safety) drains at the pool deep end & spa floor
2. large debris basket on the deck (but no debris basket exists for the spa)
3. filter pump (which includes its own debris basket) with jandy valves from spa & pool
4. filter
5. solar heater (can be jandy valved out of the loop)
6. propane heater (can NOT be jandy valved out of the loop)
7. back to the pool via inch-wide wall openings in the pool & spa (with spa & pool jandy valves)

From what you advised me, the SWCG would go between #6 and #7, right?

I think so. It should to be after the heater, and in a pipe that will see full flow all the time. Definitely should be after the heater.

 

[Gary Davis]

Some of the figures I see in this thread seem way out of wack.

I agree that some of the figures don't mesh.

While I don’t know the details of how much electricity each piece of equipment uses, running our pool adds about $30-$40 a month to our total electric bill.

This is an interesting problem to outline because what you said is critical.
a. The COST is what matters to each of us
b. BUT the AMOUNT of added electricity required by a SWCG pool is a more valuable metric

While we can all agree the final cost for each of us is what matters when calculating how much a SWCG really costs to use and maintain over its lifetime, it's not obvious why cost alone is a BAD METRIC to use in a forum where people live in different parts of the country.

The price of electricity can be double (or half) in various parts of the country, and the price of electricity can be different during the day than from the night... so while cost is definitely paramount as a final tally for any one home, the metric we need to focus on to be of general use to everybody is the AMOUNT of added electricity - and - perhaps - the TIMING of that added electricity (e.g., for me, anything between 5pm and 8pm is more expensive but on other plans, anything during the day is more expensive than anything during the night).

Also the LOCATION will matter due to temperatures being vastly different.

That’s running a single speed 1hp pump 10hrs a day, a SWCG set to around 60%, and running a pressure cleaner booster pump about 10hrs or so a week. I suspect the vast majority of the cost is from the single speed pump.

Agreed a single speed pump is a no no nowadays in terms of efficiency.
What's CONFUSING is that most people run their pumps anyway (whether or not they have a SWCG pool).

Given that fact, what would seem to matter most is how much ADDITIONAL pump running is required for a SWCG pool.

Something I didn’t see mentioned when considering the total cost to own a SWCG vs manual chlorination methods, is the total transportation costs to get liquid chlorine, tabs, etc (gas, auto maintenance, wear and tear on the vehicle, etc.).

I mentioned it quite a few times (e.g., I even mentioned that a chlorine leak can damage the vehicle's trunk).
How I ameliorate that cost, by the way, is I buy chlorine & muriatic acid rarely (I stock huge quantities - and yes I'm aware of degradation).

Something else….I don’t think I’ve seen a single post from someone saying they quit using a SWCG because the operating costs was so much higher than manual chlorination.

I don't think we have many unhappy SWCG pool owners but I also think there is quite a lot of cognitive bias.
That cognitive bias comes into play in a whole bunch of pernicious places (such as the need to justify the costs with unmatchable metrics such as quantifying the cost of "inconvenience" or "accidental damage" and by ignoring the cost of maintenance & repair), etc.

Having said that, we're ALL aware that it's a pain in the butt to stock liquid chlorine and we're just as well aware that the price is shooting through the roof for that liquid chlorine (although what matters - which MANY people focused upon - is cost per unit of free chlorine).

In summary I suggest we focus on the quantifiable costs (such as equipment costs and repair costs and maintenance costs and daily running costs) and not on the unquantifiable costs such as the value to each of us of not spilling chlorine in our trunk (especially since we still need to buy muriatic acid and spilling THAT in the trunk is admittedly just as bad or worse and the transportation of that is also a pain albeit less often required for sure).

In the end, what I think the most important missing metric was how much ADDITIONAL electricity a SWCG pool requires (as the cost is dependent on highly variable time-based and season-based regional-based electrical rates).

 

[reggiehammond]

In summary I suggest we focus on the quantifiable costs (such as equipment costs and repair costs and maintenance costs and daily running costs) and not on the unquantifiable costs such as the value to each of us of not spilling chlorine in our trunk (especially since we still need to buy muriatic acid and spilling THAT in the trunk is admittedly just as bad or worse and the transportation of that is also a pain albeit less often required for sure).

That's perhaps an unnecessarily complicated way to look at things. It's almost like saying: "Let's only measure some things we choose to measure, but ignore all the benefits and other harder-to-measure aspects."

 

[Newdude]

The bottom line is that everybody has to justify it, or not justify it, for themselves.

We had the highest electric rates in the country. (Many places have since caught up to us and that's a sucky party for y'all to join). I don't recognize it in the bill when the pool gets opened. Maybe another person would. Maybe they still wouldn't care and would walk out back at pet the SWG like I do. She's a good girl. She likes when you scratch her flaps.

 

[Saturn94]

My point was, at least in my case (and likely applies to many others), our total monthly electricity cost each month to run the entire pool is low enough that it doesn’t matter to me how the electricity cost for each piece of equipment breaks down. There’s no appreciable benefit to spending so much time analyzing every detail.

IMHO, if one is very concerned about their electricity cost to run the pool and is looking for ways to save, then they should be looking at their pumps and runtimes. In my experience using a SWCG since 2004, there’s no way a properly sized SWCG comes anywhere close to using as much electricity as the pumps.

 

[JamesW]

It’s a lot like debating buying a dishwasher.

You can consider the cost of buying and operating a dishwasher vs. doing the dishes by hand and this is mostly just a waste of time because this is not how people make decisions.

They make decisions based on what their preference is.

The cost is largely irrelevant assuming you have enough money to do whatever you want.

A pool is a luxury, so we’re not talking about people who need to agonize about every penny.

 

[Newdude]

A pool is a luxury, so we’re not talking about people who need to agonize about every penny.

Sometimes getting in that door leaves little for anything else.

 

[PoolFool.]

My Rural King store had 4 gallons of 10% Chlorine for at least a buck less than the OP paid at big box.
And that's over a year later during high inflation times. Wally world used to have almost affordable chlorine for pools, but never as cheap as Rural King

 

[Mdragger88]

I wish we had one!

 

[poolnoobgrandma]

I'm confused on what you're saying in that first paragraph. I havnt looked into salt since I'm still waiting for my pool reno but my buddy was saying it's not worth it. something about the salt is bad for your body and the pool equipment. I didn't ask questions. I'm seriously considering it now tho. I'll search on here for pros/cons

Please go and read the SWCG thread. I can't imagine running my pool without one. Not sure what your buddy's experience is, but most people think the salt water "feel" is a bonus. Silkier and less harsh feeling than chlorine alone. We're entering our 5th year of pool ownership/management. We travel a lot at always return to a beautiful sparkling pool. No hunting for and lugging chlorine.

 

[kellyfair]

The saltwater feel in a saltwater pool is nothing like the saltwater feel in the ocean. The ocean has 10 times the amount of salt in a saltwater pool.

A saltwater pool feels silky, or soft. Your skin won’t feel dried out, and it isn’t harsh to bathing suits.

I raised my salt level to SWCG standards even while keeping SWCG off while redoing equipment, plumbing, etc., which took a few weeks. I prefer the way the water feels.

 

[PoolFool.]

I wish we had one!

I found them by accident. I was jealous when everyone else was talking about their Ocean State Job Lot stores.
for whatever reason the TSC has not gone into the pool chemicals and bleach route seasonally