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Thread: Help with Borates

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    Help with Borates

    I need to raise my borates from 30 to 50 from splash out etc. Can I do it with my TA at 60? Its taken me so long to lower it from 70 to 60 and the main battle I have with my pool chemistry is to hold Ph so the lower TA would help.
    12,500 Gallon PebbleFina Pool, Jandy CV#460 Filter, Jandy 1.5HP Variable Speed Pump, Jandy PLC1400,Aqualink RS, Clear O3 Ozone, Jandy Pro Series Color LED, 300 Sq.Ft. Heliocoil Solar.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Help with Borates

    Yep. That'll work just fine. Your TA is going to creep up no matter where you add your borates unless you limit you fill water consumption. The borates will just help keep a lid on your pH rise. Using boric acid to raise your borates will be the best choice as it will not affect your TA and your pH will drop a little bit. Using borax, even with the muriatic acid additions, tends to spike the pH and TA too high while doing the borates process.

    I lowered my TA to 50ppm when I added 50ppm borates (a long long time ago). However my TA always creeps up with pH because my fill water has a TA of 100-120ppm. But even if my TA is up at 70ppm, I can still get away with 12-14 days between acid additions with my pool pH sitting between 7.6 and 7.8.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Help with Borates

    With borates at 50 and TA at 60 I have to add acid weekly holding ph between 7.6-8.0. Holding Ph that tight for two weeks would be a dream! Just to clarify no issue using borax and muriatic acid mixture to raise borates from 30 to 50 with TA at 60? Are you saying at the end of the process I may have a spike in TA or just during the process?
    12,500 Gallon PebbleFina Pool, Jandy CV#460 Filter, Jandy 1.5HP Variable Speed Pump, Jandy PLC1400,Aqualink RS, Clear O3 Ozone, Jandy Pro Series Color LED, 300 Sq.Ft. Heliocoil Solar.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Help with Borates

    Yes, borax tends to raise the pH (and the TA a little bit) which you then push back down using the MA. It's one of the reasons why I don't like the process as people with hard water can experience clouding because of the pH spikes. Once calcium carbonate precipitates into the water, it takes a long time to dissolve (if it ever does at all). Boric acid is a much better product to use for this process as few people care if their pH drops a little bit.

    Going from 0 to 50ppm in a medium sized pool (16000 gallons) using only boric acid will only lower the pH by 0.3 units. But, using 1/10th of the necessary amount of borax (so 94 oz) to raise the borate levels will result in an increase in pH of +0.6 and an increase in TA of 11ppm which is why you must add the MA to knock it back down. So, the difference is adding all of the boric acid at once and giving it a good brush then walk away versus having to mix up ten buckets of borax, pour slowly in front of a return and then immediately hit it with acid while brushing in between to make sure everything mixes up really well.

    Long story short - boric acid is your friend.....

    What is the pH and TA of your fill water? It sounds like you're pool's fill water is the issue. If so, a cover can really make a huge difference in acid demand.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Help with Borates

    Fill water PH7.4 and TA 50. We do use a cover when necessary to retain heat and it does cut our chemical usage in half. I assumed you were holding Ph for 2 weeks without a cover in Tucson.

    One other question since my experience is with borax is there a boracic acid product that you prefer either granular or liquid, brand? Thank you so much for the guidance!
    12,500 Gallon PebbleFina Pool, Jandy CV#460 Filter, Jandy 1.5HP Variable Speed Pump, Jandy PLC1400,Aqualink RS, Clear O3 Ozone, Jandy Pro Series Color LED, 300 Sq.Ft. Heliocoil Solar.

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Help with Borates

    Quote Originally Posted by arin View Post
    Fill water PH7.4 and TA 50. We do use a cover when necessary to retain heat and it does cut our chemical usage in half. I assumed you were holding Ph for 2 weeks without a cover in Tucson.

    One other question since my experience is with borax is there a boracic acid product that you prefer either granular or liquid, brand? Thank you so much for the guidance!
    That's good fill water. You should be able to hold 50ppm for a good long time. Do you have a lot of aeration sources (waterfalls, bubblers, spas, etc)? It's curious to me that your pH rises so much as my pool remains mostly uncovered in the summer swim season and I can hold my pH quite well. My fill water, by contrast, has twice as much alkalinity as yours and my fill water pH is 7.8-8.2 (my fill water CH is also 280ppm on a good day but that's another story).

    Duda Diesel sells granular boric acid in a variety of different sizes. Many on TFP order from them as they are a good, cheap source of borates. They sell direct from their website, on eBay and Amazon but buying directly from them is the cheapest way (Amazon always adds a little premium).
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Help with Borates

    Now that you mention aeration and I don't list it on my equipment list because I'm a bit embarrassed that I have it, but our pool has a ozonator on it and I run it. Maybe that is causing an aeration issue, also the pool is only 3 years old maybe being newer is causing some PH rise?
    12,500 Gallon PebbleFina Pool, Jandy CV#460 Filter, Jandy 1.5HP Variable Speed Pump, Jandy PLC1400,Aqualink RS, Clear O3 Ozone, Jandy Pro Series Color LED, 300 Sq.Ft. Heliocoil Solar.

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