30 May 2024 Big Day Today - Bigger Day Tomorrow! Plaster Time!!

[JamesW]

Power directly from a breaker.

 

[setsailsoon]

Power directly from a breaker.

OK yep that'll work. I plan to run 24/7 @Jimrahbe style anyway. And if I recall correctly I can run the swg off the pump motor external power.

Thanks.

Chris

 

[JamesW]

The automation tells the pump to turn on and off, so you keep the pump powered at all times.

You don't put a VS pump on a relay.

Are you getting the IntelliCenter?

Get the Intellicenter with the integrated SWG in the load center box and power the SWG from the filter pump relay.

 

[setsailsoon]

The automation tells the pump to turn on and off, so you keep the pump powered at all times.

You don't put a VS pump on a relay.

Are you getting the IntelliCenter?

Get the Intellicenter with the integrated SWG in the load center box and power the SWG from the filter pump relay.

James,
Amazing how quickly I forgot this... on my previous pool when I originally switched to a vs pump I just replaced the original 2-speed Jandy pump motor that was already on a relay so I left it on the relay. The vs motor didn't have external power for the swg so I powered it's own relay from the pump relay to provide a second layer of protection to avoid power to the swg with no flow. Leaving it on a breaker is a much easier solution and I'll probably go with the Circupool RS 60 swg powered from the pump external power. I'll give up the remote control of % power but I found previously that I rarely needed to change this. Changing runtime duration was plenty control for my service. I'm thinking to go with an Intellicenter load center in case I can't get the Raspberry Pi solution to work for automation but base case is to use the Raspberry Pi. I really want a clean installation and I think the Intellicenter load center with breakers and relays in the same box is really nice anyway. Plenty of room in the top section for the rPi. I'll also be using LED lights with the pool light transformer mounted below the power center.

Thanks again for your help.

Chris

 

[JamesW]

Are you using the same pump for the infinity edge and filtration or two separate pumps?

I would keep the edge pump separate.

Tie in the filtration pump into the trough suction so that you can pull from the trough if you want.

 

[JamesW]

Blue = Main Drains.
Green = 2" or 2.5" PVC pipe.
Red = 3" PVC pipe.
Black dot = Check Valve.
Purple dot = Jandy NeverLube 2.5" (Inside) x 3" (Fitting Outside) two-way valve or 2" x 2.5" Jandy NeverLube two-way valves for skimmers and pool main drain.
There will be (2) 2.5" (Inside) x 3" (Fitting Outside) Jandy NeverLube Check valves after the Infinity Pump and (2) 3" Jandy NeverLube Check valves before the Filter Pump Suction Manifold.

This will allow you to adjust the edge flow and filter flow independently.

Help designing new pool mechanicals

Hello. I'm building a new custom home in Costa Rica on Pacific coast. The pool will have a water feature that spills into the main pool. My house is at 1,500ft elevation so pool can be a bit cool during part of the year so I am going to add some passive solar collectors. I intend to use all...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I'm sure this goes without saying as you are very thorough but please make sure that all exposed concrete surfaces, including the interior and exterior of the infinity edge trough, are coated with a water barrier material (something like Hydroban or an equivalent) and the surfaces are finished either in plaster, tile, stone fascia, or paint (yuck!). I can't believe how many times TFP has seen posts of "finished" pools where there is above ground exposed concrete walls that are part of the pool structure and have no finishing done to them whatsoever. Then the owner posts 6 months later when there's massive amounts of efflorescence forming on all the exposed surfaces.

 

[setsailsoon]

View attachment 553312

Blue = Main Drains.
Green = 2" or 2.5" PVC pipe.
Red = 3" PVC pipe.
Black dot = Check Valve.
Purple dot = Jandy NeverLube 2.5" (Inside) x 3" (Fitting Outside) two-way valve or 2" x 2.5" Jandy NeverLube two-way valves for skimmers and pool main drain.
There will be (2) 2.5" (Inside) x 3" (Fitting Outside) Jandy NeverLube Check valves after the Infinity Pump and (2) 3" Jandy NeverLube Check valves before the Filter Pump Suction Manifold.

This will allow you to adjust the edge flow and filter flow independently.

[QUOTE="JamesW, post: 2525709, mem...signing-new-pool-mechanicals.286490 [/QUOTE]

James, Thanks much and this is the detail I'm trying to incorporate. My pool plumbing is similar to the pool in Costa Rica that you originally posted this. In fact it was such a stunning look that it drove me to incorporate into our design. Don't really recall if they had a euro edge on all of the edges in addition to the infinity edge as I do though. With this design I don't have any skimmers since the entire pool is actually one skimmer. I will have ability to valve closed the euro drains around all the edges to "force" all flow over the infinity edge but normally the two valves will be closed. When closed the gutter around the pool will fill up and rise to the level established to get all the water over the infinity edge. You're weir calculations were incredibly helpful to me in the detailed design. I'm finding contractors with experience in euro eDefinitely will be using a separate filter pump as well. I've met with several forming contractors in the last seven days an hopefully will meet with another today. That's a separate saga of its own and I'll post separately on that. Each also has a plumber they work with and they all seem to be recommending "up sizing" the plumbing to 3".

View attachment 553312

Blue = Main Drains.
Green = 2" or 2.5" PVC pipe.
Red = 3" PVC pipe.
Black dot = Check Valve.
Purple dot = Jandy NeverLube 2.5" (Inside) x 3" (Fitting Outside) two-way valve or 2" x 2.5" Jandy NeverLube two-way valves for skimmers and pool main drain.
There will be (2) 2.5" (Inside) x 3" (Fitting Outside) Jandy NeverLube Check valves after the Infinity Pump and (2) 3" Jandy NeverLube Check valves before the Filter Pump Suction Manifold.

This will allow you to adjust the edge flow and filter flow independently.

Help designing new pool mechanicals

Hello. I'm building a new custom home in Costa Rica on Pacific coast. The pool will have a water feature that spills into the main pool. My house is at 1,500ft elevation so pool can be a bit cool during part of the year so I am going to add some passive solar collectors. I intend to use all...

www.troublefreepool.com

James,

Thanks much and this is the detail I'm trying to incorporate. My pool plumbing is similar to the pool in Costa Rica that you originally posted this. In fact it was such a stunning look that it drove me to incorporate into our design. Don't really recall if they had a euro edge on all of the edges in addition to the infinity edge as I do though. With this design I don't have any skimmers since the entire pool is actually one skimmer. I will have ability to valve close valves in the euro drains around all the edges to "force" all flow over the infinity edge but normally the two valves will be open and they will dump into both ends of the infinity basin. When closed the gutter around the pool will fill up and rise to the level need to get all the water over the infinity edge. Your weir calculations were incredibly helpful to me in the detailed design. I'm finding contractors with experience in euro edge are not super sophisticated. They design more from "rules of thumb" they know to work. I at least need to know the fluid mechanics confirm the "rules of thumb" will work. As to the separate filter pump - absolutely! Controls on this design are complicated enough, making the filter pump flow independent is way better.

I can't wait to get going on this pool... the excavation/forming sub selection process has been a real saga. It's an entire post of it's own.

Many thanks for all your super design help.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

I'm sure this goes without saying as you are very thorough but please make sure that all exposed concrete surfaces, including the interior and exterior of the infinity edge trough, are coated with a water barrier material (something like Hydroban or an equivalent) and the surfaces are finished either in plaster, tile, stone fascia, or paint (yuck!). I can't believe how many times TFP has seen posts of "finished" pools where there is above ground exposed concrete walls that are part of the pool structure and have no finishing done to them whatsoever. Then the owner posts 6 months later when there's massive amounts of efflorescence forming on all the exposed surfaces.

Matt,

Great point you make and definitely we'll have no exposed concrete. On the back side of the pool that nobody ever sees we'll likely waterproof and stucco/paint to match the house in all areas other than the infinity overflow wall. This will be a very small job for my stucco sub but I developed a great relationship with him on the house so I expect he'll send me a couple of his workers to do it. Should be half day max. On the infinity edge we intend to plaster/tile at the top inside and waterproof/tile on the back wall that drops down to the basin. I think no matter what I do on this there will be on-going maintenance. Similar to the overflow from the raised spa on my previous pool. Pool chemistry and a little scrubbing now and then were the best ways to minimize this. Hope it works on this pool.

Chris

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Matt,

Great point you make and definitely we'll have no exposed concrete. On the back side of the pool that nobody ever sees we'll likely waterproof and stucco/paint to match the house in all areas other than the infinity overflow wall. This will be a very small job for my stucco sub but I developed a great relationship with him on the house so I expect he'll send me a couple of his workers to do it. Should be half day max. On the infinity edge we intend to plaster/tile at the top inside and waterproof/tile on the back wall that drops down to the basin. I think no matter what I do on this there will be on-going maintenance. Similar to the overflow from the raised spa on my previous pool. Pool chemistry and a little scrubbing now and then were the best ways to minimize this. Hope it works on this pool.

Chris

The trough will catch the vast majority of the water but you can expect splash and overspray to affect the surrounding area much like how decorative fountains tend to splash a lot of water on to the surrounding at the base. Being on the side that nobody sees helps a lot but you might consider rocking or mulching the ground area around the back wall to avoid killing any vegetation there. Pool water can definitely kill sensitive vegetation and the only thing that will grow there are ugly saline tolerant weeds.

 

[setsailsoon]

08 Feb 2024 Update: Excavation/Forming Saga

As I mentioned previously this is really tough compared to the house project last year. I think the issue is the size of the job isn't all that large to support contractors doing a lot of work to get the job. It's basically 7 days work at most. One or two days for the dig is usually about $4000. Sounds like quite a bit 'till you look at their costs:

• Dump truck
• Excavator possibly two, one big and one small
• Skid steer to haul the dirt out to load at the road.
• Operator and one helper
• Fuel

Bare bones cost about $3000 and bids are all around $4000.

Forming is about 5 days of mostly materials and labor

• 3 skilled and semi-skilled in ~$4000 to do the wire
• Plumbing is about $2000 in labor plus $2K materials plus a trencher and labor for another $2K so say $6K

So costs I can easily identify are $9 K. Say they mark up 30% that's about $12k. Add a little contingency and it's about a $14K job. They are all busier than one-armed paper hangers. That might add another $1k because they don't want any chance to lose money on a one-off job. PB's line them up for multiple jobs in a row. They don't have "staff" to do estimating and proposals for the most part. Much easier to just keep doing standard pools for pool builders than a custom pool design for an OB. Also, there are a lot of OB that have disaster results they've all heard of.

On the OB build of the house last year I faced similar challenges but usually on larger $ value. What worked best for that was to make sure they knew that if they did good work (100% in their control) I would make sure they were always cash flow positive even if I had to do so with cash (always had signed receipt though). Large builders have invoicing systems that are absurd with never-ending delays to fix minor typos etc so net 30 usually end up net 45. So here's another interesting factor. All 3 subs actively working with me to get the job know the others are bidding and they've all known each other for years. They are all also very busy. One is coming to visit the site today. My challenge is to assess if we can work together, negotiate reasonably, and establish credibility that he won't be negative cash flow on this job. Will be interesting to see how this goes...

Chris

 

[JoyfulNoise]

08 Feb 2024 Update: Excavation/Forming Saga

As I mentioned previously this is really tough compared to the house project last year. I think the issue is the size of the job isn't all that large to support contractors doing a lot of work to get the job. It's basically 7 days work at most. One or two days for the dig is usually about $4000. Sounds like quite a bit 'till you look at their costs:

• Dump truck
• Excavator possibly two, one big and one small
• Skid steer to haul the dirt out to load at the road.
• Operator and one helper
• Fuel

Bare bones cost about $3000 and bids are all around $4000.

Forming is about 5 days of mostly materials and labor

• 3 skilled and semi-skilled in ~$4000 to do the wire
• Plumbing is about $2000 in labor plus $2K materials plus a trencher and labor for another $2K so say $6K

So costs I can easily identify are $9 K. Say they mark up 30% that's about $12k. Add a little contingency and it's about a $14K job. They are all busier than one-armed paper hangers. That might add another $1k because they don't want any chance to lose money on a one-off job. PB's line them up for multiple jobs in a row. They don't have "staff" to do estimating and proposals for the most part. Much easier to just keep doing standard pools for pool builders than a custom pool design for an OB. Also, there are a lot of OB that have disaster results they've all heard of.

On the OB build of the house last year I faced similar challenges but usually on larger $ value. What worked best for that was to make sure they knew that if they did good work (100% in their control) I would make sure they were always cash flow positive even if I had to do so with cash (always had signed receipt though). Large builders have invoicing systems that are absurd with never-ending delays to fix minor typos etc so net 30 usually end up net 45. So here's another interesting factor. All 3 subs actively working with me to get the job know the others are bidding and they've all known each other for years. They are all also very busy. One is coming to visit the site today. My challenge is to assess if we can work together, negotiate reasonably, and establish credibility that he won't be negative cash flow on this job. Will be interesting to see how this goes...

Chris

Great analysis, Chris. I think you hit on a lot of the issues with pool building in general. In the grand scheme of things, pools are not high dollar value projects and so a builder has to keep the pipeline running with higher volumes to ensure that they make some money and their subs (the ones they like to deal with) are kept busy with a steady stream of work. OB jobs are probably no big deal to any of them but the subs aren't going to disrupt an existing relationship with steady work just to satisfy a one-off job. Flexibility is key on the owner-side of the equation if you've found a great sub that is willing to do the work. A positive work relationship is an absolute must-have so as to keep the "drama" to a minimum. The subs just want to get their jobs done and have a satisfied customer at the end of the day ... they don't need or want any drama.

Thanks for the updates! Always a great read.

 

[setsailsoon]

Great analysis, Chris. I think you hit on a lot of the issues with pool building in general. In the grand scheme of things, pools are not high dollar value projects and so a builder has to keep the pipeline running with higher volumes to ensure that they make some money and their subs (the ones they like to deal with) are kept busy with a steady stream of work. OB jobs are probably no big deal to any of them but the subs aren't going to disrupt an existing relationship with steady work just to satisfy a one-off job. Flexibility is key on the owner-side of the equation if you've found a great sub that is willing to do the work. A positive work relationship is an absolute must-have so as to keep the "drama" to a minimum. The subs just want to get their jobs done and have a satisfied customer at the end of the day ... they don't need or want any drama.

Thanks for the updates! Always a great read.

Matt,
Thanks for the kind words. I've already gotten a lot of great advice and help on this project. Hope I can pay it forward a little by documenting my experience with this job.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

09 Feb 2024 Update - the saga continues

One of the 3 bidders on the excavation/forming is working on a response to my request and committed to call me tonight. He's working a big job south of here and will have some downtime to look at the prints... I'm not real hopeful but we'll see what he says. Also, the other sub was a no show yesterday and not responding to my texts so I assume he's out.

This sounds pretty dismal but I'm really not worried... there are several other approaches that I may move in parallel:

• Work with smaller new builders to do part of the work. They are often younger and would like to have a pool like mine in their portfolio.
• Redesign to a smaller pool, just like the one I have but spaced further away from the house to reduce risk (or at least perceived risk).
• Attract subs with $ up front incentive pay
• Prayer

Stay tuned. Last item might be needed regardless...

Chris

 

[kimkats]

The last one has been operation already so we are good there

 

[newdude]

The incentive pay is the way to go IMO.

It would take a year for the proverbial dust to settle and then I would KICK myself everytime I saw the smaller pool that wasn't where I wanted it. I'd say 'Self, you're an idiot for not spending $2500 (2%???) to get what you wanted'. *Kick in the rump*

I passed on $7k for an even larger pool. If it was $7k to keep my big pool where I wanted it, I would have spent it eventhough it was close to 20% of my build cost.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

• Prayer

Stay tuned. Last item might be needed regardless...

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

10 Feb Update:

Two of the excavation and forming contractors are late and promising "next week". One officially no-bid because he can't come close to my schedule. In the meantime, I found another very viable sub contractor. He's younger, 5 years pool excavation business and done a LOT of work for local home builders and a few custom pools most bigger than mine. He's also very sharp technically, and entrepreneurial clearly wants to compete as a high end builder eventually. Spent two hours with him this morning going over plans, and site access. Lots, and lots of questions which I like a lot! He also had a lot of great ideas for the edge details also. Fingers crossed... If this doesn't work I've added another bullet to my option list:

• Hire the craft labor myself and self-perform supervision/procurement

There's a lot not to like with this option for me. This will require I find at least one good English-speaking one or have a translator. I will be even lower on the totem pole but at this level there are many more to choose from. It's also got a lot of "people issues". Also, adds complications for insurance that will cost me. If it were a longer duration I wouldn't consider this but I'm getting a little impatient having my whole job waiting on about 5 days worth of craft labor for 3 people. I can get people like this by just hanging around places where new builds are underway... found a superb carpenter this way on the house build. Still have him do jobs for me and will probably have him do the outdoor kitchen.

Stay tuned...

 

[setsailsoon]

11 Feb 2024

After a lot of bouncing around on who gets the excavation and forming work I finally found the right company and closed the deal yesterday... I'm giving @kimkats prayers all the credit! We're confirming steel materials and dump truck availability tomorrow. Could actually should start the dig next week... targeting to get my inspection scheduled for Feb 19th and gunite next day. Pricing was very close to my budget which is good as well. @JamesW , I am doing the basin plumbing just as you showed and will get the pump on order in the morning. Also, thanks much for the suggestion on the 5HP Pump. Polytec shows availability and great price as usual.

One important detail I had to work on this pool is that we're digging very close to major 42"x 42 concrete footers that are 2' deep. They are major load bearing footers under the columns at the edge of the patio you can see in my previous footers. If I could get a contractor that can drive sheet piles to protect the footers from undermining in event of Florida gully washers I'd prefer to do that. But only one sub has that capability and he's not available for months. So I'll revert to flashing some gunite on the wall. Minimum gunite order is 12 yards so it'll probably cost me about the same as driving sheet piling. $3K to avoid having to explain to my wife that the house is closer to the pool than plan is worth every penny!

I had a blast building the house but the pool is gonna be special. I'm pumped!

Chris

 

[kimkats]

I finally found the right company and closed the deal yesterday... I'm giving @kimkats prayers all the credit!

SWEET!!! Glad I could help!!

$3K to avoid having to explain to my wife that the house is closer to the pool than plan is worth every penny!

SO TRUE!!! She sure does not need to worry about that at all!!!

I was sitting here thinking about how far you have come in your pool life! Way back in Oct. 2015 you were just finding your way in proper pool care. Look at you now!! Designing a POOL to outshine most pools! You got this!