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Thread: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

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    Jaimslaw's Avatar
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    Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    My electric company now sends me emails showing in graphic form, their criminally high kwh rates. This graphic really hit home about changing out my 2.0 hp WFE-8 pump:



    I'm leaning toward the intelliflo VS over a dual speed based more upon recovery of cost than on anything else, given these insanely high kwh rates (w/ recognition of higher savings with dual speed..or maybe not).

    Would appreciate it if someone can weigh in on what my annual savings would be, given a 5 hour per day run time. Not sure what my current pump is costing me, but I know its a lot. Would try to compute this but I missed a lot of my H.S. math classes due to illness (cough); tho I did graduate from college [Before I went to college, I couldn't spell 'graduate'...now I are one].

    I'm thinking that given these high rates, I stand to really see some major savings. Thanks.
    Pool: 13k gal. in-ground; Stonescape Mini Pebble - Tropics Blue; Connected Spa - dual spill-over; Aqua Rite T-15 SWCG; AquaLogic PS-4 Automation; Sta-Rite DE Filter; Sta-Rite Max-e-Therm 400k BTU pool heater; Intellifo 2-VST Pump; Stenner 45mp2(25psi/10gpd) acid injection; Bulbwizard color LED pool lights; Poolvergnuegen 2 wheel side suction cleaner; FAFCO rooftop solar. TF-100 w/ speed stir.

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    Mod Squad Jimrahbe's Avatar
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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    I picked the Intellifo VS as the best pump for me, but I'm not sure I'd pick it as the best pump for you. I do love VS pumps, but I don't believe that your Automation system can control the Intelliflo. I suggest that you match your Automation system with your new pump, so that the integration goes smoothly.

    Jim R.
    Finished in 2015 - 17K Gal, IG, 20' x 25' Almost Rectangular Pool, Pebble finish, three rockport water falls. Pentair Equipment: EasyTouch 4, IC40 SWG, 3 HP VS Pump, CCP520 Cartridge Filter.
    TF100 with SpeedStir and SampleSizer, ColorQ Pro 7, Dolphin Premier Robot Cleaner, added Screen Logic 2, added small 3 person Calder Spa.

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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    For a simple pool a two speed is generally the better bargain in terms of ROI. But with a more complex pool a VS is a better choice. It allows you to tailor the perfect speed to each task. I have a speed for daily cleaning, another for filter and SWG, when my solar comes on the pump shifts to a third speed which is ideal for running the solar. A very slow speed is set for extra filtration and a a quick clean cycle is available at the touch of a button. In total I am using at least four separate speeds on a daily basis, and each is optimized to effectively complete the task using a minimum amount of energy. That's the beauty of the VS, the ability to make the fine adjustment based on the task at hand.
    chiefwej
    Tucson, AZ
    16x36 rectangular (19k) Pebble Tec play pool/spa, Pentair Intelliflo VS 011018, Super II 2hp (spa), Aqua Rite T-15 SWG, Pro Grid 60 DE, Hayward H400 & Heliocol Solar heating, A&A infloor system, fill water w/high CH and TA, 50 ppm borates,TF-100 test kit

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    I generally agree with chief, BUT, with rates as high as the OP, the VS would certainly save more money and also likely has rebates available.

    I also agree with Jim that you want to make sure that the pump you get can be integrated into your existing automation system.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    Those are some high rates! I run my Intelliflo at 1100 rpm for skimming and making chlorine and it uses 150 watts. For solar it runs at 1950 watts and uses 550 watts. Your pump probably uses 2000 watts or so.

    Here is how electricity math works
    (Watts x hours)1000 x your rate/kWh x 30 days
    150 x 8 = 12001000 = 1.2 x $0.38 = $0.456 x 30 = $13.68
    2000 x 8 = 160001000 = 16 x $0.38 = $6.08 x 30 = $182.40

    You are now re-educated!
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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    I agree that your current pool pump is an energy hog and that you'll save lots of money switching (CA has rebates for VS and 2-speed pumps), but you need to look at this from all angles.

    You probably have an A/C unit, right? That's going to be a huge driver of your electric bills.

    How old are your windows? Double pane and low-e glass? Are the argon seals still intact? Any other major electrical appliance like a hot water heater? Electric ovens? How many refrigerators do you own? Is you landscape lighting lighting LED or incandescent? How long do you run it? The lights inside your home, are they LED or incandescent?

    Switching out pumps is a great start but if you really want to tackle your energy bill then I would consider a whole-home energy audit performed by a qualified and independent energy specialist, i.e., not some salesman wanting to sell you solar panels. They can slap clamp meters on all the stuff in your home and give you a pretty clear picture of what's draining your wallet each month.
    Matt
    16k IG PebbleTec pool, 650gal spa, spillway and waterfall, 3HP IntelliFlo VS / 1.5HP WhisperFlo, Pentair QuadDE-100 filter, IC40 SWCG, MasterTemp 400k BTU/hr NG heater, KreepyKrauly suction-side cleaner Dolphin S300i robot, EasyTouch controls, city water, K-1001, K-2006 and K-1766 test kits, Mannitol test for borates

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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    As for your current pump till you get the new one you should be able to lower your run time. If the performance curve of your current pump is to be believed you are turning your water over more than 3 times per day. 2 hrs should be more than enough for your pool baring plumbing restrictions or high bather/debris load. Assuming a 2 KW per hour on your current pump 3 hours less would save $2.28 per day.
    12,300 Gallon, IG PebbleFina, 3 ft sheer, 2 Jandy nicheless LED lights, Jandy Pro 1.5HP VS pump (A.O. Smith Motor), PB4-60 Booster pump, Polaris 280, Jandy cv340 cartridge filter, Zodiac Z4 control panel W/iAquaLink, Stenner pumps for chlorine & MA connected to WiOn WiFi switches, TF-100. You can support TFP with AmazonSmile just click the link!

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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyfulNoise View Post
    I agree that your current pool pump is an energy hog and that you'll save lots of money switching (CA has rebates for VS and 2-speed pumps), but you need to look at this from all angles.

    You probably have an A/C unit, right? That's going to be a huge driver of your electric bills.

    How old are your windows? Double pane and low-e glass? Are the argon seals still intact? Any other major electrical appliance like a hot water heater? Electric ovens? How many refrigerators do you own? Is you landscape lighting lighting LED or incandescent? How long do you run it? The lights inside your home, are they LED or incandescent?

    Switching out pumps is a great start but if you really want to tackle your energy bill then I would consider a whole-home energy audit performed by a qualified and independent energy specialist, i.e., not some salesman wanting to sell you solar panels. They can slap clamp meters on all the stuff in your home and give you a pretty clear picture of what's draining your wallet each month.
    My library actually has the doohickies that will measure your electricity usage that you can take out. OP might want to look into it if they want to know how much electricity the pump is using.
    20K gallon 32 ft x 16 ft vinyl liner in ground pool || sta-rite modular media P150 cartridge filter || .75 HP whisperflo dual speed pump
    Taylor K-2006 Test Kit

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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    To expand on the numbers:

    A 2.0HP pump is probably closer to 11 Amps @ 230V, or 2500 Watts (from a quick google; you can check the nameplate). At 5 hours a day and $0.38/kWh, that's 12.5 kWh/day for $4.75/day or $142/month.

    If you ran a VS pump at 200W, maybe for 8 hours/day, that's 1.6 kWh/day for $.061/day or $18/month. How often do you use the spa? If you run at 2500W for an hour a day, that's an additional $25/month. Even with that, you'd save $100/month. 2 years of 5-month swim seasons and the ~$1000 cost is recovered. Probably sooner if you use the spa less often or if you run the pump on a reduced schedule during the winter (which most of us CAians do). While it's worth looking at other energy efficiency items also, a 2HP pool pump is good low-hanging fruit.

    On the 2-speed vs VS, my opinion: A 2 speed pump can have a better return IF you are sure of the ideal flows (i.e. that "low" won't be too low for skimming/SWCG/solar/whatever to work), and IF those speeds are split the way the manufacturer decided. I think you're an ideal case for VS -- you likely need the full 2HP flow for the spa (or you might find that it works just as well slower), but for pool filtering probably need way less than half of that. With a VS pump you'll be set the minimum speed/energy needed for each purpose. I'd hate to install a 2-speed pump only to find that low was either still louder and more costly to run than I needed, or that it was a bit too slow for the SWCG and I had to run on high most of the time anyway.
    21000gal IG plaster, Sacramento CA area (late 1950s/early 60s)
    Filter: Cartridge, Pentair CCP420 (2014)
    Main pump: Pentair IntelliFlo VS (2015)
    Boost pump: 3/4hp (2011), Polaris 280 cleaner (unknown age)

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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    A 2 speed pump runs at 3400 rpm on high and 1700 on low. It will move about half the water for about 25% of the electric cost.
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    2012 build and pics, 20k gal gunite, black onyx pebblesheen, OK flagstone, IntellifoVS, cart filter w/Pleatco, IC40 SWG, Solartouch, 5 12'x4' solar panels, HP50HA heat pump, 8mil solar cover, borates, TF-100 test kit, SONOS, Doheny's Discovery Robot, hot tub on bleach

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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    Thanks guys. These are really helpful and informative responses. Looks like I hit paydirt.

    Now comes the somewhat bad news, which also puts on display a considerable lack of foresight on my part. As much as I would like to go VS (mostly cuz I can easily afford it), I think my Hayward AquaLogic PS-4 automation limits me to a two speed if I want my Energy savings pump to integrate with my existing system. I foolishly believed the Itellicomp relay adaptor that is suppose to allow non Pentair panels to be compatible with Intelliflo pumps is not all its cracked up to be - this from reading some prior posts on my system's compatability with these Pentair products.

    It's not as tho I now need to open a vein over this...I can live very well with a two speed if I can verify that my Hayward T-cell 15 swg will work at the low rpm setting of a dual speed. One post on this forum calculated that my cell would need no less than a 60 gpm flo rate to function. Will revisit that to be sure that rate was referring to my T-cell. I'm thinking maybe the low speed pump setting won't get to that required flow rate. Does anyone know if this is the case?

    BTW, not really wanting to just run the intellifo on its own internal timing, ie, separate out much of the automation I enjoy and have invested a lot of $$ over the years (don't want to have to be going to the VS for manual controlling purposes). So possibly may be SOL as to both a dual speed and a VS.

    I'll do some more research. In the meanwhile, feel free to correct what may be some erroneous assumptions being made on my part.
    Pool: 13k gal. in-ground; Stonescape Mini Pebble - Tropics Blue; Connected Spa - dual spill-over; Aqua Rite T-15 SWCG; AquaLogic PS-4 Automation; Sta-Rite DE Filter; Sta-Rite Max-e-Therm 400k BTU pool heater; Intellifo 2-VST Pump; Stenner 45mp2(25psi/10gpd) acid injection; Bulbwizard color LED pool lights; Poolvergnuegen 2 wheel side suction cleaner; FAFCO rooftop solar. TF-100 w/ speed stir.

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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    Why not get a Hayward ecostar?

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    My SWG needs about 15gpm to work. Low speed should provide that, at least until the filter gets dirty

    You could go with the Hayward VS pump or any 2 speed (assuming you will have 2 relays for it)
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    Mod Squad pooldv's Avatar
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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    The Pentair Superflo 1-1/2hp VS pump can accept speed changes from a relay as well, 3 maybe 4 different speeds, each controlled by a different relay. You preset each speed to the RPM that you want on the pump then any automation that controls a relay can change the speed.

    Here is one, Pentair SuperFlo VS Pump 342001 | Pentair 342001
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    2012 build and pics, 20k gal gunite, black onyx pebblesheen, OK flagstone, IntellifoVS, cart filter w/Pleatco, IC40 SWG, Solartouch, 5 12'x4' solar panels, HP50HA heat pump, 8mil solar cover, borates, TF-100 test kit, SONOS, Doheny's Discovery Robot, hot tub on bleach

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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    Your control system is a Hayward product. It should work with a Hayward VS pump. Otherwise you can access some of the "external speeds" on a Pentair through you automation system and use the pump's onboard timer for the rest. I have no automation at all, other than a solar controller that accesses External Speed #2. The pump's onboard timer controls the rest. If your automation will interface with the Pentair, there are several "external speeds" that can be programmed.

    I have learned a bit about how my Intelliflo works, but I know very little about automation systems in general, and even less about the one you have or how to make it talk to a Pentair pump. Don't give up on the idea of a VS pump though. You have the type of system they were designed for, and a utility rate that really needs one. A two speed won't give you the several custom speeds you need for your spa, the solar, operating the SWG, cleaning the pool, etc. And with a spa I would stick to a 3hp pump like the Intelliflo 011018. It will give you plenty of power for spa jets, but will spend most of its life idling along at 1000-1200 range, where it draws about as power as a single 100watt light bulb.
    chiefwej
    Tucson, AZ
    16x36 rectangular (19k) Pebble Tec play pool/spa, Pentair Intelliflo VS 011018, Super II 2hp (spa), Aqua Rite T-15 SWG, Pro Grid 60 DE, Hayward H400 & Heliocol Solar heating, A&A infloor system, fill water w/high CH and TA, 50 ppm borates,TF-100 test kit

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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    Evidently, a post I read about the turbo cell (aquarite T-15) requiring 60 gpm was erroneous. Several here have posted that they have had no problem generating chlorine on these salt cells at low speeds, with around 15 Gpm being the point the low flow sensor shuts it off. Will call a rep to confirm.

    There is a thread on this subject where some with my system have weighed in about contacting Hayward for advice about integrating the intelliflo with the Hayward panel, and getting a curt "Your system won't work with the Intelliflo" and then abruptly hanging up. Others posts have been along the lines that you just will not get the full automation you might otherwise have with a Pentair system panel...or what you are enjoying with the current Hayward automation system...even with available relays. Suppose to have something to do with being able to handle "group configurations" ie, automating a spa/heater/pump use. Others have mentioned that besides this, you'd be better off at the end of the day with a dual speed, given some sacrifices in automation with a VS pump.

    If I go with a two speed, seems I could get by with running the pump for, say, 4-6 hours and then ramping it to full speed for an hour or two for my suction side cleaner. It would seem to preserve all my automation, including ramping up the speed whenever I want to see my waterfall in action, or to see the dual spill over spa with a healthy look to it..again, on an "on call" basis only, lest I start adding up high energy timed use. Since I am probably on an overkill anyways with my current 2.0 single speed pump, I'm thinking of going with a 1.5 hp dual speed and save some $$ over what I have, even while in high speed.

    Will search for some more threads on my system and exhaust the viability of either the Hayward VS or a intelliflo pump before deciding on a dual speed set up. Again, so far from posts I've read on my set up vis a vis the Intellifo, it doesn't look promising (one poster with my set up lamented buying the Intellifo instead of a dual speed). That may also be the case even with the Hayward VS, given the limitations of my older Aqualogic PS-4; that is, not being able to allow for a lot of variation in times and speeds that is a core benefit of VS pumps.
    Pool: 13k gal. in-ground; Stonescape Mini Pebble - Tropics Blue; Connected Spa - dual spill-over; Aqua Rite T-15 SWCG; AquaLogic PS-4 Automation; Sta-Rite DE Filter; Sta-Rite Max-e-Therm 400k BTU pool heater; Intellifo 2-VST Pump; Stenner 45mp2(25psi/10gpd) acid injection; Bulbwizard color LED pool lights; Poolvergnuegen 2 wheel side suction cleaner; FAFCO rooftop solar. TF-100 w/ speed stir.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    How old is your automation panel? I thought the Hayward Eco Stars would plug in with s communication cable giving you full control. That said, a 2 speed would be cheaper and easier program.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    I have no automation. I have an Intelliflo 011018 programmed to come on early am and clean the pool, then it changes to a lower speed to filter and run the SWG (which is switched by an old Intermatic timer), then in the afternoon to a very low speed to provide extra filtration. Anytime heat is called for and available the solar controller opens the valve and ramps up the pump speed. This is all done automatically without me touching anything. I'm lucky that my spa and gas heater is on a seperate circuit with its own dedicated pump. Soon I have a simple remote that just activates that pump and the heater to turn on the spa.
    chiefwej
    Tucson, AZ
    16x36 rectangular (19k) Pebble Tec play pool/spa, Pentair Intelliflo VS 011018, Super II 2hp (spa), Aqua Rite T-15 SWG, Pro Grid 60 DE, Hayward H400 & Heliocol Solar heating, A&A infloor system, fill water w/high CH and TA, 50 ppm borates,TF-100 test kit

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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    How old is your automation panel? I thought the Hayward Eco Stars would plug in with s communication cable giving you full control. That said, a 2 speed would be cheaper and easier program.
    My research tells me that the Hayward Ecostar VS requires the Prologic PS-4' the software version of which provides for VS programming, vs my Aqualogic PS-4 which is limited to programming of a two speed pump (if full automation is to be achieved). I believe without a Prologic board, you would be limted to programming of two vs 4 speed/time settings.

    I just know my brain begins to ache when I try to comprehend a means of accomplising a fully integrated and fully automated VS set up with my PS-4.
    Pool: 13k gal. in-ground; Stonescape Mini Pebble - Tropics Blue; Connected Spa - dual spill-over; Aqua Rite T-15 SWCG; AquaLogic PS-4 Automation; Sta-Rite DE Filter; Sta-Rite Max-e-Therm 400k BTU pool heater; Intellifo 2-VST Pump; Stenner 45mp2(25psi/10gpd) acid injection; Bulbwizard color LED pool lights; Poolvergnuegen 2 wheel side suction cleaner; FAFCO rooftop solar. TF-100 w/ speed stir.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

    I think you could be very happy with a 2 speed and it will save you large portion of the possible power savings.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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