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Thread: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

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    JayG's Avatar
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    Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    Hi All,

    Ran across this calculator and thought it looked interesting. Does it reflect real-life savings? Or is it simply a marketing tool. My inputs were: 40,000 gallons; 1.5 hp SS pump; 24 hrs runtime; $0.23/kWh; 5 month season.

    https://www.hayward-pool.com/shop/en...ergyCalculator

    I ask, because I am in the market for a VS pump for next season. The current 1.5 hp single speed super pump II was run 24/7 by the former owners. I know the idea of running a pump 24/7 is thought to be crazy by many here. The former owners claimed that they ran it 24/7 because when on a timer it had lost prime on occasion and had caused "big problems". The pump is about 8-9 ft above the water level of the pool, so I can imagine a case where a check valve intermittently leaks and then the pump cannot pull enough to reprime. I've been too "chicken" to toy with their existing system for this season, but next season I figured that I could install a VS pump that could run 24/7 at low speed and still get enough turnover.

    The tool correctly calculates my approximate flow rate (~62-65 gpm measured by my nifty TFT flow meter) and cost to run (~$220/month). It promises some astonishing savings for a VS pump. The Hayward calculator indicates that strategy would cost only $65 in electricity per season (compared to $1200/season for the single speed). Of course, I might need to bump up the flow for heating or skimming, but if I'm working with a baseline energy cost of $13/month to run the VS pump 24/7 and avoid the risk of intermittent loss of prime...I would definitely go that route. My only concern is that the Hayward calculator may be way too optimistic. If the electrical use numbers are legit, it makes the choice of a VS pump a no-brainer. Thoughts?

    Thanks!

    Jay
    Jay--Metro NYC
    35K gal, in-ground, free-form, pebble finish, 2 skimmers, 3 returns, autofill. No spa, no features. Partial shade.
    Pentair C&C cartridge filter (400 sq in), Pentair VS pump, Pentair 140 btu heat pump, Triton Plus Robo-cleaner; Stenner with 55 gal bleach cistern. TFT 100 test kit.

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    I think their "calculator" is more about harvesting email addresses that accurately calculating savings. This might help:

    http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/26/2673adde-dce4-4243-b522-c5aa458f4717.pdf

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    JayG's Avatar
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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewkearns View Post
    I think their "calculator" is more about harvesting email addresses that accurately calculating savings. This might help:

    http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/26/2673adde-dce4-4243-b522-c5aa458f4717.pdf
    Thanks. FYI, there is no need to input an email address to see results. I put in my zip code and pool size and went straight to the calculator. No email. No problem. I'll check out your link.
    Jay--Metro NYC
    35K gal, in-ground, free-form, pebble finish, 2 skimmers, 3 returns, autofill. No spa, no features. Partial shade.
    Pentair C&C cartridge filter (400 sq in), Pentair VS pump, Pentair 140 btu heat pump, Triton Plus Robo-cleaner; Stenner with 55 gal bleach cistern. TFT 100 test kit.

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    I just switched to a Hayward VS pump this year and the savings on the calculator are pretty accurate in my situation. I typically run my pump 6 hours a day and more if we are swimming. The electric rates in my area are fairly low but I am still saving about $30 a month on my electric bill. That is about what the calculator predicted. My electric bill last year at this time was $76 and this year it is $43.
    10,000 gal Inground Fiberglass Pool;Aquarite SWG; Hayward H Series Gas Heater;
    Hayward Sand Filter; 1.5 HP Hayward Max-Flo VS Pump; Dolphin Pool Cleaner; TF100 Test Kit

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    Oh, OK, my bad..... I'll try to give a more specific answer, then:

    Their calculator assumes I'm using $492 for a six month season, or $492/6=$82.50/month. I'm actually using about $48.47 per month. So they have me burning about twice as much as I am....

    Calculating backward... They assume a seasonal average of $6 per month using their pump. At my electric rates, that would be 52.174 kWh or about .1 hp 24/7.

    So my conclusion is that if you assume I'm using about twice as much electricity as I really am and replace my pump with a pump with one about 1/8th the size, I can save about $456/season.

    The only take-away from this, as I see it, is that for their recommended run time of 24 hours/day only requires a 1/10 hp pump Not sure why I want a VS pump to run 24/7, though.....

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    They also have a iOS app that you can put on your phone.
    It's really simple math,
    My old 2HP superpump used over 2000watts to run while my new superpump VS now uses about 160W for 20hrs a day & about 560w for the other 4 hrs.
    It's like the cost of a light bulb most of the time and when it spools up it draws about the same as some of the lights i have around the house. Not all change to LED's yet
    Most important with it running all the time my pool has been crystal clear and my skimmer has never collected so much stuff as it did this year. I spend far less time playing pool boy scooping up all the stuff from the pool.
    If i crank it up to WOT(3000RPM) it's still less than 1200w
    IG Tear Drop, Dark Gray Gunite , 27,000 gallons -Age 50+-years, very old Hayward Split Egg Sand Filter with side mount Multi-port- Hayward SP2600VSP Pump- Hayward chlorine feed (not used since finding TFP) - Laars 315K BTU Oil heater- LoopLoc Safety cover- AquaBot RAPIDS 4WD- TF-100 Test Kit w/ Speedstir- 390 Gal Hot Springs Spa Envoy installed May 2017

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    You can use the spreadsheet in my signature. It is based on actual measurements of each pump and it uses more realistic run time assumptions.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewkearns View Post
    Oh, OK, my bad..... I'll try to give a more specific answer, then:

    Their calculator assumes I'm using $492 for a six month season, or $492/6=$82.50/month. I'm actually using about $48.47 per month. So they have me burning about twice as much as I am....

    Calculating backward... They assume a seasonal average of $6 per month using their pump. At my electric rates, that would be 52.174 kWh or about .1 hp 24/7.

    So my conclusion is that if you assume I'm using about twice as much electricity as I really am and replace my pump with a pump with one about 1/8th the size, I can save about $456/season.

    The only take-away from this, as I see it, is that for their recommended run time of 24 hours/day only requires a 1/10 hp pump Not sure why I want a VS pump to run 24/7, though......
    I'm not sure they make a recommendation of how much to run your pump; the 24 hr/day was recommended only because I input my current pump run time at 24 hr. If I input 12 hrs, they show the savings for 12 hr of runtime. So if I understand your case, you are running your 3/4 hp pump 24 hrs a day and your energy usage is half of what the calculator predicts? If so, that says something about its accuracy.

    I think the value of the VS pump for me is being able to keep things running at a low cost while having the headroom to run at higher rpms for heating or skimming. A 1/10 hp pump wouldn't fill the bill for me.
    Jay--Metro NYC
    35K gal, in-ground, free-form, pebble finish, 2 skimmers, 3 returns, autofill. No spa, no features. Partial shade.
    Pentair C&C cartridge filter (400 sq in), Pentair VS pump, Pentair 140 btu heat pump, Triton Plus Robo-cleaner; Stenner with 55 gal bleach cistern. TFT 100 test kit.

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    You can use the spreadsheet in my signature. It is based on actual measurements of each pump and it uses more realistic run time assumptions.
    Mark, I always forget your spreadsheets. They take some time to understand, but they are worth the effort. I played with the pump curve until I got about 65 gpm from a 1.5 hp pump running at 3450 rpm (what I see in my current configuration) and then used that curve for the other pumps (is this appropriate?). I need to play with it more, but for my needs the Hayward super pump VS seems to be the winner with the Ecostar coming in a close second. Any reason to think the Ecostar would last longer than the SP VS if they are both run 24/7 (8 hr at ~33 gpm and 16 hr at ~20 gpm). The Ecostar gets there at 1500/900 rpm vs 1750/1000 rpm for the SP VS. The Ecostar has more programming capabilities built in and 2" connectors (which match up with my existing plumbing) while the SP VS has limited programming and 1.5" connectors. Either pays for itself within the first season given my current setup. The SP VS just costs a bit less to buy and saves a few dollars a month more than the Ecostar. Any guidance?
    Jay--Metro NYC
    35K gal, in-ground, free-form, pebble finish, 2 skimmers, 3 returns, autofill. No spa, no features. Partial shade.
    Pentair C&C cartridge filter (400 sq in), Pentair VS pump, Pentair 140 btu heat pump, Triton Plus Robo-cleaner; Stenner with 55 gal bleach cistern. TFT 100 test kit.

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    EVChargeGuy's Avatar
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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    One more advantage about a VS pump, I find them much quieter then single speed pumps.
    IG Tear Drop, Dark Gray Gunite , 27,000 gallons -Age 50+-years, very old Hayward Split Egg Sand Filter with side mount Multi-port- Hayward SP2600VSP Pump- Hayward chlorine feed (not used since finding TFP) - Laars 315K BTU Oil heater- LoopLoc Safety cover- AquaBot RAPIDS 4WD- TF-100 Test Kit w/ Speedstir- 390 Gal Hot Springs Spa Envoy installed May 2017

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by fauxQ View Post
    I played with the pump curve until I got about 65 gpm from a 1.5 hp pump running at 3450 rpm (what I see in my current configuration) and then used that curve for the other pumps (is this appropriate?).
    What is your current pump model or do you know if it is up rated or full rated? Super IIs come in both. What plumbing curve did you end up with?

    The MaxFlo VS usually beats the SuperPump VS for lower head loss plumbing. Even if it doesn't, it probably isn't by much so I would go with the MaxFlo anyway. I like the pump basket design of the MaxFlo flow a little better than the SuperPump.

    Any reason to think the Ecostar would last longer than the SP VS if they are both run 24/7 (8 hr at ~33 gpm and 16 hr at ~20 gpm).
    First, I would never run a pump 24/7 since there is no benefit in doing so no matter how much debris falls in the pool. But for reliability, there is no conclusive evidence to date that any of these pumps are better or worse than any other.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    What is your current pump model or do you know if it is up rated or full rated? Super IIs come in both. What plumbing curve did you end up with?

    The MaxFlo VS usually beats the SuperPump VS for lower head loss plumbing. Even if it doesn't, it probably isn't by much so I would go with the MaxFlo anyway. I like the pump basket design of the MaxFlo flow a little better than the SuperPump.

    First, I would never run a pump 24/7 since there is no benefit in doing so no matter how much debris falls in the pool. But for reliability, there is no conclusive evidence to date that any of these pumps are better or worse than any other.
    My Super II pump has a SF of 1 and 1.5 hp. I ended up with 0.015 as a pump curve. That may be a bit off as I think the filter needs cleaning at this time of the season. In the last month I've seen the PSI go from 12 to 18. If the normal PSI were 10 at the filter, would that impact my "pump curve"? We are closing the pool in 3 days, so I'm not keen on cleaning the filter to find out. Next season will be my first year of "real" ownership (rather than inheriting an ongoing pool maintenance contract) so I can be much more precise on these sorts of details.

    I understand the argument that running 24/7 serves no real purpose, but I've been spooked by the previous owner's report of intermittent loss of prime when they had the pump on a timer. The pump sits 8-10 ft above the skimmer. There is a Jandy check valve, but I'm reluctant to ignore their advice in my first full year of ownership (i.e., next season). Maybe as I learn the pool and get more comfortable, I'll start experimenting with running it part time. Meanwhile, running a VS pump at low speeds 24/7 seems slightly less insane than running a 1.5 hp pump at 3450 rpm 24/7 (not to mention about $1000/season less in electrical costs).

    Thanks for the heads up on the MaxFlo VS.
    Jay--Metro NYC
    35K gal, in-ground, free-form, pebble finish, 2 skimmers, 3 returns, autofill. No spa, no features. Partial shade.
    Pentair C&C cartridge filter (400 sq in), Pentair VS pump, Pentair 140 btu heat pump, Triton Plus Robo-cleaner; Stenner with 55 gal bleach cistern. TFT 100 test kit.

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    The SuperII would use about 1729 watts at around 63 GPM with that plumbing curve and yes, a dirty filter increases the head loss so the plumbing curve would change.

    Assuming 1 hour at 3000 RPM and 5 hours at 1000 RPM, the MaxFlo would use about 39 kwh/month and the SuperPump, about 44 kwh. So not much of a difference. The MaxFlo use a little less energy at the higher speeds where it matters more so that 1 hour has more impact than the other 5 hours on a lower speed.

    But keep in mind that a Super II two speed (i.e. motor replacement) would use about 110 kwh/month. Twice as much but you mind find it takes a while to make up the cost difference.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    Thanks Mark!

    The other factor I need to consider: adding some sort of automation down the line. If I want to add a Stenner pump for bleach and a heat pump, it seems all these moving parts need to talk to each other. From what I gather, that means adding something like the Pentair EasyTouch or the Hayward OmniLogic or the equivalent. Again, from what I gather, that means using a VS or 2-speed pump that can be controlled to make it run when the heat pump comes on or to make sure the pump is running when the Stenner is pumping. I think I read somewhere that the MaxFlo and the SP VS cannot be "controlled" in this way. Do I have to step up to the IntelliFlo or EcoStar to get this?
    Jay--Metro NYC
    35K gal, in-ground, free-form, pebble finish, 2 skimmers, 3 returns, autofill. No spa, no features. Partial shade.
    Pentair C&C cartridge filter (400 sq in), Pentair VS pump, Pentair 140 btu heat pump, Triton Plus Robo-cleaner; Stenner with 55 gal bleach cistern. TFT 100 test kit.

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    The newer versions of the MaxFlo and SuperFlo can be controlled by their respect manufacture's controller. In the controller manuals on the web sites, they list the pumps they support.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    The newer versions of the MaxFlo and SuperFlo can be controlled by their respect manufacture's controller. In the controller manuals on the web sites, they list the pumps they support.
    Thanks Mark! I guess I was focused on the EasyTouch from Pentair and OmniLogic from Hayward (with the hopes that they sort out the gremlins in the current iteration). From what I can find, OmniLogic only supports the TriStar VS and the EcoStar VS. EasyTouch only supports the Intelliflo VS and VF pumps. Maybe I'm missing something, or were you referring to another of the myriad of controllers offered (it is mind-numbing)?

    Cheers,

    Jay
    Jay--Metro NYC
    35K gal, in-ground, free-form, pebble finish, 2 skimmers, 3 returns, autofill. No spa, no features. Partial shade.
    Pentair C&C cartridge filter (400 sq in), Pentair VS pump, Pentair 140 btu heat pump, Triton Plus Robo-cleaner; Stenner with 55 gal bleach cistern. TFT 100 test kit.

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    Look at page 13 here: http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/manu...-IS2302VSP.pdf

    It looks like it would work with any controller.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    Thanks!!
    Jay--Metro NYC
    35K gal, in-ground, free-form, pebble finish, 2 skimmers, 3 returns, autofill. No spa, no features. Partial shade.
    Pentair C&C cartridge filter (400 sq in), Pentair VS pump, Pentair 140 btu heat pump, Triton Plus Robo-cleaner; Stenner with 55 gal bleach cistern. TFT 100 test kit.

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    To make sure everyone is up to speed on which VS pumps are compatible with the OmniLogic. First of all, all of the VS pumps are compatible with the other controllers. The SP3202VSPND TriStar VS pump is the one compatible with the OmniLogic. The EcoStar that has a box marked with OmniLogic compatible can be used with the OmniLogic. The Max Flo and Super pump VS are not compatible with the OmniLogic at this time. That was a mouth full. As software is changed and pumps are updated this will change in the future. The Max Flo and Super Pump VS can be powered by the OmniLogic, but the programing will need to be done on the back of the pump.
    Hayward Pool Tech
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    poolside@haywardnet.com

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    Re: Hayward calculator for pump energy use? Reality or fantasy?

    One follow up. Is the MaxFlo VSPND compatible with any version of the AquaLogic? The manual text is a little confusing on page 13. The first sentence does not mention the Aqualogic but the second does.

    http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/manu...-IS2302VSP.pdf
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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