a Q about phospates

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DMS2014

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Jun 22, 2014
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Houston, Texas
I did a search and read a 2011 post about phos in someone's pool BUT Husband was wondering if that could have anything to do with our constant high pH issues. Our FC has been stable all week at 5.5. our SWG is at 70% which I feel is high for this time of year
Did a full test today and results were:
FC 5.5
CH 375 (amazingly and strangely down from the 450 it's been at for two years)
pH was 8.2
TA 70
CYA 50
Salt 3200

WENT to Leslie's last week bc I couldn't believe that with two socks of CYA it was still not registering beyond 20ish (chem new) . it was accurate. and ,shockingly, they were spot on with most of my tests from last week. They said my Phos was 655 and the ideal range is 0-100. They said my salt was 3111.
 
For those that follow industry advice, adding 1 to 3 ppm a day (when you probably lose 4 ppm per day mid season), then phosphates matter alot. Phosphates are in fact algae food.

If the FC is at an inhospitable level for algae to grow, phosphates don't matter at all, no matter how much algae food is laying around.

I liken it to all the cans of dog food at Petco. Not one of them have ever spawned a dog because they are sealed up tight. If you opened them and dumped all the contents on the floor and left the doors open over a long weekend, it might matter alot, when it previously didn't matter one bit.

We keep the cans sealed (maintain a proper FC per your CYA level). No dogs (algae) will appear.
 
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DMS2014 said:
I did a search and read a 2011 post about phos in someone's pool BUT Husband was wondering if that could have anything to do with our constant high pH issues. Our FC has been stable all week at 5.5. our SWG is at 70% which I feel is high for this time of year
Did a full test today and results were:
FC 5.5
CH 375 (amazingly and strangely down from the 450 it's been at for two years)
pH was 8.2
TA 70
CYA 50
Salt 3200

WENT to Leslie's last week bc I couldn't believe that with two socks of CYA it was still not registering beyond 20ish (chem new) . it was accurate. and ,shockingly, they were spot on with most of my tests from last week. They said my Phos was 655 and the ideal range is 0-100. They said my salt was 3111.
Click to expand...
You didnt post your CC level but if those are high you could have something brewing.
 
Newdude said:
For those that follow industry advice, adding 1 to 3 ppm a day (when you probably lose 4 ppm per day mid season), then phosphates matter alot. Phosphates are in fact algae food.

If the FC is at an inhospitable level for algae to grow, phosphates don't matter at all, no matter how much algae food is laying around.

I liken it to all the cans of dog food at Petco. Not one of them have ever spawned a dog because they are sealed up tight. If you opened them and dumped all the contents on the floor and left the doors open over a long weekend, it might matter alot, when it previously didn't matter one bit.

We keep the cans sealed (maintain a proper FC per your CYA level). No dogs (algae) will appear.
Click to expand...
good bc I already have 2 dogs and don't need any more! During the summer i try to keep the FC at 6 or 7 bc our Very hot weather...
 
DMS2014 said:
They said my Phos was 655 and the ideal range is 0-100.
Click to expand...
Phosphates are reported in parts per billion, so while the number seems high, it is really only 0.655 ppm, which is low.

Forget about phosphates.

Also, I suspect that the pH is not actually 8.2.

Can you show the actual pH test?

Can you post a full set of reading of your fill water.
 

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Here is one:

Failing Salt Generators: The Phosphate Connection

When a salt chlorine generator begins to fail it will not produce sufficient free chlorine to keep up with demand. One possible cause is the presence of phosphates in the pool water.
www.aquamagazine.com www.aquamagazine.com

Here are a few threads that do a deep dive into Phosphates:


Phosphates.....are they worth removing??

Over the last few day's there has been a few threads started about phosphates and their benefits in pools. Over the years I've formed a few questions concerning phosphate removers and would like to hear other members thoughts about their use. My first question is a simple one........When are...
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
That's not a study; it's a couple of anecdotes and speculation.

Calcium phosphate and other phosphate compounds can cause scale, but probably not at less than 1,000 ppb (1 ppm).
 
They acknowledge that it is "theoretical", but the correct term is hypothetical.

They say "It appears" and "seem to cause" which are statements of speculation and conjecture.

Hypotheses require properly designed scientific studies to confirm the hypotheses before they can be considered to be theories.

The real interference of phosphates in chlorine generators is still somewhat theoretical.

It appears that since orthophosphates attach to metals they attach to the anode and cause an interference with the flow of electrons between the anode and the cathode of the salt chlorine generator.

We do know that higher levels of orthophosphate seem to cause a definite interference with the normal operation of the salt chlorine generators."
Click to expand...

1714143131724.png
 
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JamesW said:
They acknowledge that it is "theoretical", but the correct term is hypothetical.
Click to expand...

Scientific discoveries often start with a hypothesis.

I believe I have read other references to this but unfortunately I do not have the links. However, I believe this was discussed in one or both of the links I posted above.

I think it is plausible and even thought of an experiment to prove it. However, it might be something that accumulates over time so a short term experiment may not reveal anything.
 
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@Texas Splash had sample size of 1 evidence of phosphates mattering for his SWG.

There have been a handful of others who saw similar gains after treating phosphates. Definitely enough to raise the question while certainly not proving anything. (y)
 
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@dfwnoob said that with enough data points, TFP ebentually becomes the science. I thought that was beautiful. Maybe we will one day here too. (Either way)
 
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Newdude said:
There have been a handful of others who saw similar gains after treating phosphates. Definitely enough to raise the question while certainly not proving anything. (y)
Click to expand...
I am one of them. But it is hard to know for sure if it was due to an increase in SWG production or the reduction of nascent algae consuming FC.
 
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I started reading though one of the threads and came across this from @JoyfulNoise :

Phosphates.....are they worth removing??

Interesting how this site has changed its views over the past 13 years. I for one use phosphate removers in all my pools. Yes it’s a bit of an add on to the clients but I think it’s well worth it should chlorine levels ever drop for whatever reasons.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

JoyfulNoise said:
I've thought quite a bit about this over the last few years trying to come up with a chemical explanation for why higher PO4 levels might contribute to problems with SWG's beyond the usual explanation of "it's algae food" and I've not found much. Sure, calcium phosphate scale could coat a plate and cause a loss of FC production but that's not a likely scenario in a lot of pools (you need high CH, phosphates and pH to make it happen). The one theory I'd like to test would require a fully outfitted chemistry lab running multiple chlorine generation experiments using membrane-separated cathodes and anodes to analyses oxidation and reduction products along with high resolutions SEMs .... anyone got a few million dollars and an industrial lab space available???
Click to expand...
 

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