I’m attending a trade show in Long Beach CA. these next few days, if you have any questions for the big manufacturers (Pentair, Hayward and such) throw them out and I’ll try to get an answer.
05 May Update - More progress, still a lot left to finish tile
- Thread starter setsailsoon
- Start date
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,184
- Pool Size
- 25000
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- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Wow! Thanks so much! Biggest question I have from them is around LED lights. Best I can tell right now is the most recent Jandy seem to have the best solution. Seems to keep onboard electronics dryer and cool enough so long as water flow isn't obstructed during installation. So my question is: "When will any of them be producing an LED that really will allow PB industry to get a full 20,000 hour of life instead of the current 4 year max?" Marine industry took several generations to get this right and now seem to have licked the problem... pool industry not quite yet.
Thank you so much for offering this Aqua. Your help has been a bonanza to this OB'er.
Chris
I’m in class all day today (one class by On Balance) but will hit the show room floor tomorrow and will ask the Jandy rep your question and see what he has to say or if he has any literature on the subject.
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,184
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- Plaster
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- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
I plan to do the bicarb set up for well water. I'll add details later on why so any additional thinking about dealing with well water start would be very helpful.
Thanks!
Chris
- May 23, 2015
- 24,455
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- 16000
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- Plaster
- Chlorine
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- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Have you looked at Hydrazzo? It’s plaster that is completely diamond wheel polished (uses a special hydraulic driven diamond wheel). Supposed to produce an exceptionally smooth surface.
I have regular PebbleTek that is nearing 12 years old. I’ve grown to dislike it a lot since it becomes very rough with age (due to the exposed aggregate). If/when we remodel the pool, I’ll be looking at polished plaster solutions only with minimal exposed aggregate.
I have regular PebbleTek that is nearing 12 years old. I’ve grown to dislike it a lot since it becomes very rough with age (due to the exposed aggregate). If/when we remodel the pool, I’ll be looking at polished plaster solutions only with minimal exposed aggregate.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 53,026
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- Plaster
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- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
+1 for Hydrazoo. I have had it for 20 years.
Polished Pool Finish - CL Industries
CL Industries is the world leader in exposed aggregate pool finishes, deck coatings and building materials for the commercial and residential pool industry. For more than a quarter of a century, CL Industries’ experts around the world have been dedicated to providing customers with innovative...
clindustries.com
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,184
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- 25000
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- Plaster
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- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
This is very timely. I met with my last plaster bidder today and he was extremely impressive. I believe they are also the (or a) dealer for them in my area. Should have their quote next week and I plan to select/award this sub by end of next week. Things are really moving fast on this job. He also said a lot of the right words like he completely understands the bicarb start up and is very supportive. Also very complimentary of the quality of the gunite finish plus "no home owner understands how important keeping it hydrated like your temp sprinkler tie-in". Hopefully he'll price within my grasp. Thank you Allen!+1 for Hydrazoo. I have had it for 20 years.
Polished Pool Finish - CL Industries
CL Industries is the world leader in exposed aggregate pool finishes, deck coatings and building materials for the commercial and residential pool industry. For more than a quarter of a century, CL Industries’ experts around the world have been dedicated to providing customers with innovative...
Chris
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,184
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
29 Mar 2024 Update#2 on my well water issue
Folks,
I have looked at alternatives for initial fill around here and the only real alternative is companies that get a meter installed by the local utility that will install and rent a meter they connect to the closes fire hydrant. There are a lot of companies that do this all the time to power wash sidewalks, fences and all kinds of commercial buildings. I have a fire hydrant less than 200' away. Problem is this water quality is very poor. Many systems like ours are remote from town so we don't get flushed often and we're not even on the main pumping system. I've seen this water and the it starts our almost red and eventually gets down to just a little tint. I talked to one supplier that indicated he has purchased his own meter (the utility calls this a floating meter contractor). He said they have tested many, many meters and have found the ones that have only a "little bit of iron" but he wouldn't tell me how much. Using this supplier would cost me about $2500. There is also another supplier that runs the water through sand and carbon filters at a much higher price. They also will not commit to iron levels. I have done a LOT in this home build to avoid iron including digging 2 150' wells that have sulfur but no iron or manganese. So this just isn't viable for me. I do have two wells that can easily produce a total of 40 gpm continuously sustained (from my well test data after drilling) so I plan to use one of them and produce the max I can keep up with using @onBalance 's bicarb method. I'm hopeful I can maintain at least 10 gpm or maybe even 2x that with a duel bicarb system from one well. I will also install jumpers to assure the other well can do the house and sprinkler system in the interim. That should fill my pool in just a couple days. I have plenty of time to get it set up and buy the supplies since I won't be doing plaster 'till about mid April.
Question for @JoyfulNoise or @onBalance or anybody else that knows about the bicarb startup. I have a spare hydrogen peroxide injection system that I could use to at least reduce the sulfide levels... well analysis is about .6 ppm. I also have very low levels of tannin. Would it be OK to run the peroxide system? Also, do I need to run a mixed bed softener to reduce hardness and tannins? Well water is about 10 grain/gal total hardness.
Chris
Folks,
I have looked at alternatives for initial fill around here and the only real alternative is companies that get a meter installed by the local utility that will install and rent a meter they connect to the closes fire hydrant. There are a lot of companies that do this all the time to power wash sidewalks, fences and all kinds of commercial buildings. I have a fire hydrant less than 200' away. Problem is this water quality is very poor. Many systems like ours are remote from town so we don't get flushed often and we're not even on the main pumping system. I've seen this water and the it starts our almost red and eventually gets down to just a little tint. I talked to one supplier that indicated he has purchased his own meter (the utility calls this a floating meter contractor). He said they have tested many, many meters and have found the ones that have only a "little bit of iron" but he wouldn't tell me how much. Using this supplier would cost me about $2500. There is also another supplier that runs the water through sand and carbon filters at a much higher price. They also will not commit to iron levels. I have done a LOT in this home build to avoid iron including digging 2 150' wells that have sulfur but no iron or manganese. So this just isn't viable for me. I do have two wells that can easily produce a total of 40 gpm continuously sustained (from my well test data after drilling) so I plan to use one of them and produce the max I can keep up with using @onBalance 's bicarb method. I'm hopeful I can maintain at least 10 gpm or maybe even 2x that with a duel bicarb system from one well. I will also install jumpers to assure the other well can do the house and sprinkler system in the interim. That should fill my pool in just a couple days. I have plenty of time to get it set up and buy the supplies since I won't be doing plaster 'till about mid April.
Question for @JoyfulNoise or @onBalance or anybody else that knows about the bicarb startup. I have a spare hydrogen peroxide injection system that I could use to at least reduce the sulfide levels... well analysis is about .6 ppm. I also have very low levels of tannin. Would it be OK to run the peroxide system? Also, do I need to run a mixed bed softener to reduce hardness and tannins? Well water is about 10 grain/gal total hardness.
Chris
- May 23, 2015
- 24,455
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Chris,
Don’t use the peroxide or the mixed bed filters. Just add the well water.
Hydrogen sulfide isn’t an issue. When you start to chlorinate the pool, that will take out the tannins and the H2S.
How much iron is in the raw water supply?
Don’t use the peroxide or the mixed bed filters. Just add the well water.
Hydrogen sulfide isn’t an issue. When you start to chlorinate the pool, that will take out the tannins and the H2S.
How much iron is in the raw water supply?
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,184
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Matt,
Iron and manganese are zero. In this area we have a choice of no iron but loaded with sulfur (.1-2ppm) or no sulfur but loaded with iron. Weird but I verified this in both wells as we drilled and test produced zones. I made the judgement we would prefer to deal with sulfides because both had established treatment technologies and with iron excursions cause bad difficult to remove stains and sulfur didn't have this. Didn't realize at the time my wife can reliably detect down to 85 ppb! But probably would still make that call but didn't realize the extremes I'd have to go to that would keep it undetectable.
This is really great news to me Matt, with no pretreatment I can fill the pool rather quickly. If I go with the kind of plaster that can't dry out without risking spider cracks I would have the pool filled in a little over a day. 20+ gpm with a temp pipe direct from the pump discharge. My only concern that was driving me to think about running the mixed bed softener was the tannin level. I was afraid My tannins might stain the plaster then be harder to oxidize out with chlorine and I wouldn't want to be scrubbing new plaster aggressively. Was thinking I could add calcium back but now that I think about it there is another alternative. I could run just an anionic resin softener for the tannin removal that would not lower the calcium level. Do you think this would be better or just don't worry about the tannin level and chlorinate. The tannin level is barely noticeable but it is definitely there - kind of a faint yellow tint when compared with bottled water in a clear glass.
Chris
PS As we have experimented with sulfur treatment I found we don't really need the peroxide injection. The air injected catalytic bed removes 90+% and the very small amount remaining is reduced to less than Robin's detectable level with a very high-end polishing filter that contains KDF 85 and catalytic carbon. It's not cheap ($135) but should last 3-5 years at these low levels.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 53,026
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Think you can rig up a large barrel during the fill filled with polyfill top try and filter out as much iron as possible?
www.troublefreepool.com
If you’ve got iron in your fill water, use Polyfill to remove it
EDIT: Found out this method only works if your iron is oxidized already, meaning it’s got a dull or bright green tint to the water, or a nasty brown tint. If you know you have iron in your fill water, but it isn’t oxidized yet, bring your pool to shock level and it’ll turn the telltale green...
www.troublefreepool.com
Chlorine will oxidize sulfide to sulfur or sulfate, so you can pretty much ignore the hydrogen sulfide.
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- May 23, 2015
- 24,455
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Chris -
While the tannins can be an issue at high concentrations, my guess is that you will be fine. The water might start off a little yellow/brown/tea colored as you fill but once you start adding chlorine, the tannins should oxidize fairly rapidly. Obviously with new plaster you cannot push the FC up to SLAM levels but, if you can add chlorine a few days after you fill, you should be able to get the color out pretty quickly. Deep tannin stains typically happen when leaf matter is allowed to decay and sit against a pools surface for weeks and months on end (closed pools with a lot of leaf debris). Even in those cases, super chlorinating is usually enough to slowly lift the stains.
I’m much more concerned about using a filter and adding aggressive water to the pool and then trying to compensate with solid calcium sources. It’s just sounds way more complicated and potentially damaging to a pool if you don’t get it right (high risk).
@JamesW or @onBalance -
What do you all think about adding peroxide to the fill water as the pool fills instead of chlorine?
Most startup procedures ban chlorine use for the first 3 days to avoid chloride from weakening the cement curing process. Peroxide is a strong oxidizer towards tannins but shouldn’t cause the same issues as chlorine does.
Thoughts?
While the tannins can be an issue at high concentrations, my guess is that you will be fine. The water might start off a little yellow/brown/tea colored as you fill but once you start adding chlorine, the tannins should oxidize fairly rapidly. Obviously with new plaster you cannot push the FC up to SLAM levels but, if you can add chlorine a few days after you fill, you should be able to get the color out pretty quickly. Deep tannin stains typically happen when leaf matter is allowed to decay and sit against a pools surface for weeks and months on end (closed pools with a lot of leaf debris). Even in those cases, super chlorinating is usually enough to slowly lift the stains.
I’m much more concerned about using a filter and adding aggressive water to the pool and then trying to compensate with solid calcium sources. It’s just sounds way more complicated and potentially damaging to a pool if you don’t get it right (high risk).
@JamesW or @onBalance -
What do you all think about adding peroxide to the fill water as the pool fills instead of chlorine?
Most startup procedures ban chlorine use for the first 3 days to avoid chloride from weakening the cement curing process. Peroxide is a strong oxidizer towards tannins but shouldn’t cause the same issues as chlorine does.
Thoughts?
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,184
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Matt,
That makes a LOT of sense. Unless somebody can suggest an improvement that will be my base plan along with the bicarb set up. Looks like I'll need to stock up on supplies. Glad I just got my tftestkit refills!
Chris
Thanks much Allen! I'm fortunate to have zero iron, manganese but plenty of sulfide and a little tannin.Think you can rig up a large barrel during the fill filled with polyfill top try and filter out as much iron as possible?
If you’ve got iron in your fill water, use Polyfill to remove it
EDIT: Found out this method only works if your iron is oxidized already, meaning it’s got a dull or bright green tint to the water, or a nasty brown tint. If you know you have iron in your fill water, but it isn’t oxidized yet, bring your pool to shock level and it’ll turn the telltale green...
Chris
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,184
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Thanks James, it's always good to see the chemical engineer to chime in. The two mad scientists on my side is a good thing!
Chris
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,184
- Pool Size
- 25000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
OK, now a basic question. The barrel. Anybody know the best source along with the hose fittings to attach in some sort of leakless (is that a word) manner? I plan to keep them for my rain recovery fill system.
Chris
Chris
I'm not sure that you need a barrel.
As long as you have good circulation, the bicarb dissolves pretty quickly.
Crank up the pumps and brush and the bicarb will dissolve fairly quickly.
In my opinion, a balanced startup with a 0.0 CSI is probably easier than adding a bunch of bicarb and then having to deal with high TA.
Maybe it helps the plaster, but I am not sure how much difference it actually makes.
As long as you have good circulation, the bicarb dissolves pretty quickly.
Crank up the pumps and brush and the bicarb will dissolve fairly quickly.
In my opinion, a balanced startup with a 0.0 CSI is probably easier than adding a bunch of bicarb and then having to deal with high TA.
Maybe it helps the plaster, but I am not sure how much difference it actually makes.
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The amount of chloride is pretty low, so probably not worth worrying about.
1 ppm FC from sodium hypochlorite = 1.7 ppm salt = 1 ppm chloride.
If you use the salinity in the CSI calculation, that should mostly offset the TDS/Salinity/Chloride issue.
Most fill water has several hundred ppm salt anyway.
What is the salinity of the fill water?
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Especially on surfaces that need an additional procedure on the following day (basically everything now except traditional plaster) since it’s already been allowed 24+ hours to cure. I don’t know that the added complication and daily monitoring provides any measurable benefit.
The theory behind it makes perfect sense but I wonder if the actual benefit is far less profound.
- May 23, 2015
- 24,455
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Chris -
You may have posted this before but if you could measure the CH/TA/pH of the well water you plan to use, that would be helpful. Your test kit has everything you need to do a quick analysis.
You may have posted this before but if you could measure the CH/TA/pH of the well water you plan to use, that would be helpful. Your test kit has everything you need to do a quick analysis.