Persistent cloudy water

electrodrew · Mar 15, 2024

New pool owner here and still trying to learn about pool chemistry. We bought a house with a 25k gallon in ground vinyl pool that is approximately 20 years old. We suspect the pool was unused for the last 10-12 years (pool store had records that the liner was replaced in 2012) but was covered during the house sale. After uncovering, we scooped out most of the large debris but could not see the bottom of the pool due to all the algae.

We hired a reputable pool company to do a “green to clean” and they treated for phosphates and shocked it, but the water remained very cloudy. After a few visits without any change, we got impatient and took a water sample to the pool store. They set us up with alkalinity booster, algaecide, and enough granular chlorine to shock for 3 days. After that we went rouge and added flocculant without testing water chemistry (I know…). Once the pool company finally got back with us, we fessed up and they’ve been trying to treat it for the last month.

Since then, the sand filter was replaced with cartridge, more chlorine, constant running the pump, clarifier, more flocculant, muratic acid, phosphate remover, etc, etc, and we are still not making progress with the cloudiness. The progress photo attached was from a couple weeks ago.

The last visit was over a week ago when the pool guy got FC to 10, but now the water has changed from cloudy white to a blue-green. Two days ago I tested for chlorine and FC was at 0 and CC at 2.

I’m at a loss of what to do and where to go from here, especially with two 32 oz bottles of flocculant in a 25,000 pool. The pool company is either dragging their feet and/or confused about what to do, but they told us it is risky to drain because of the age of the liner.

I have the Taylor K2005 test kit, but I need help with what tests I should do to try to tackle this pool. What tests should I do and what should I be monitoring first?

Lake Placid · Mar 15, 2024

Hi E,

You've come to the right place. Run a full panel with your kit and return the results as follows:

PH
FC
CC
Alk
CH
CYA

As far a Floc is concerned, who added it, how was it added and can you outline the specific process that was followed?

Other folks will be along to assist in more detail.

ajw22 · Mar 15, 2024

Welcome to TFP. Lots to discuss...

Your K-2005 is a good test kit.........it’s just not very accurate in chlorine testing. You need to add the FSD/DPD chlorine test to be able to do accurate FC testing. You can read more at Pool Test Kits - Further Reading You can get the FAS/DPD Chlorine Test at FAS/DPD Chlorine Test Kit

You should stop adding anything into the pool except for liquid chlorine. You should add at least 5ppm of liquid chlorine per day until we know more about your pool to say exactly how to proceed. I don't know how much liquid chlorine that is since I don't know how many gallons are in your pool or the strength of the liquid chlorine you have. You can use PoolMath to calculate it.

As was asked earlier, we need a full set of chemistry tests and especially to know your CYA level.

The fact that the water changed to blue is a good sign. The cloudiness is probably caused by all the floc you added. We don't recommend using floc, especially when you have a cartridge filter. We recommend floc be used with the pump off, then let settle, and vacuumed to waste, so it never circulates and clogs the filter. Only after the floc is cleared from the pool should the pump be turned back on. For more read Flocculant - Further Reading

At this point your cartridge filter is probably clogged with floc that cannot be cleaned from it. You will need new cartridge(s). That is likely why your pool is not clearing up.

At the right time, you should turn off your pump, and let the floc settle to the pool floor for 24 hours, and then vacuum it to waste. I don't know what equipment you have and if you can vacuum to waste.

Post pictures of your equipment pad so we know what you are dealing with and create your signature with details of your pool and equipment.

We have the methods to clear up your pool but you need to cooperate and not go rogue on us.

Read about TFPC methods in the links in...

Pool Care Basics Archives

Your one-stop shop for all things TFP to include: ABCs of Water Chemistry, Recommended Chemicals/Levels, Test Kits, Troubleshooting, and much more!

www.troublefreepool.com

You should also read about our SLAM Process as once you deal with your floc issue then you need to get your pool truly algae free.

Start with:

getting the FAS/DPD test kit
downloading POOLMATH
posting your first test results
posting pics of your equipment pad
creating your signature

electrodrew · Mar 16, 2024

Thanks for the replies! Tested the water this morning and have the following:

pH: 7.2
FC: 0
CC: 1-2
Alk: 50-60 ppm
CH: 300 ppm
CYA: 32

The first addition of floc was about a week after the pool store's suggestion of adding alkalinity booster (20 lbs), 32 oz algaecide, and then shocking with 25 lbs of granular chlorine over three days. It was Clorox brand and added to the skimmer basket with the pump on recirculate for 2 hours, then shut off for 48 hours. I admit this was a weak moment of impatience and chemistry ignorance, and we have not added anything to the pool ourselves since. After no visible change in the water clarity, we turned the pump/filter back on. The sand filter we had at the time seemed to be functioning okay and we backwashed regularly, sometimes every hour. The sand filter was replaced with the Aquastar cartridge filter a week or two later.

The new filter ran for 2-3 weeks without clearing the water. In that time, the pool company added more liquid chlorine, cleaned the filter, and added a clarifier all without noticeable improvement in the water. As a last resort, the pool company added a flocculant, by-passed the filter for a few hours then has us shut off the pump. Again, no noticeable improvement after 24 hours and on the next visit they turned the pump and filter back on. Since then they've talked with some of their supplier contacts who suggested raising the calcium levels and getting the FC to 10 ppm. He was supposed to return and add more calcium and check the chlorine levels a couple days later, but that was almost a week ago.

Updated photos attached. I'll get a better chlorine test kit to supplement the K-2005 as well!

ajw22 · Mar 16, 2024

Do not raise your calcium levels. Calcium has no effect on cloudy water.

Get your FC up to 12 and keep it there using liquid chlorine. Check your FC two or three times daily and add liquid chlorine as necessary.

How was your filter bypassed? I see no valve or plumbing to do that.

When was your filter last opened up and what did the cartridge look like?

Lake Placid · Mar 16, 2024

Allen has you covered with his post above….he's quicker than I….Was the floc vacuumed to waste after the prescribed recirculate times and before the filter was reset to filter mode? If not it could have very well destroyed the media in a perfectly fine sand filter and could very well have ruined the cartridge in you current filter. I’d suggest a physical inspection of the cartridge to determine its condition.

BowserB · Mar 16, 2024

Hey Drew. I'm only five years into my first pool, but I can tell you one thing for certain. The people here will give you good advice. As to pool store and pool service companies, they are all a gamble. There are probably good ones, but there are almost certainly more who will give wrong advice, or do wrong things, than good. Pool maintenance is not rocket science--however it is science that can be learned. Read all about it here, and in a couple months, you'll know enough to never have a pool water problem again. Learn the products you need (they'll all have real names like muriatic acid, 12% liquid chlorine, cyanuric acid, baking soda, etc.) Get a full Taylor test kit or the one sold here, and be sure you get a Speedstir for mixing your test solutions. I know a few pool owners who have had pools for from ten to 25 years or more, and they have problems and now think I'm a genius--just for applying what I've learned here.

You are at the right place.

ajw22 · Mar 16, 2024

electrodrew said:
As a last resort, the pool company added a flocculant, by-passed the filter for a few hours then has us shut off the pump. Again, no noticeable improvement after 24 hours and on the next visit they turned the pump and filter back on.

I see you have a valve between the pump and filter to vacuum to waste.

What is your filter PSI?

Do you have a vacuum head and hose that connects to a skimmer for you to vacuum the pool floor?

Your other alternative is to ask your pool company if they have a standalone pool vacuum rig that can vacuum your pool without using your pump and filter?

ajw22 · Mar 16, 2024

Here is an overview of the three phases you need to take your pool through to get it back to normal. It is best to do them individually.

SLAM and get rid of algae phase - You need to eradicate the algae in the pool by maintaining what was call SLAM level (40% of CYA) FC in the pool for as long as it takes. And it may take a few weeks. You will go through a lot of liquid chlorine. The trick for you is to remove your filter cartridge and run your pool without the filter during this phase since the floc in your pool will gum up your filter.

Get rid of the floc phase - You will need to turn off your pump and let the floc settle down to the pool floor for 24-48 hours. Then you need to vacuum whatever is on the pool floor to waste. You will go through a lot of water being dumped from the pool. And you may need to let the pool settle and vacuum again a few times to get what you stir up out of the pool. Your cartridge filter is the worst of the three types of filters for dealing with this problem. You also want to try and maintain your FC and CYA levels while the pump is off and dumping a lot of water to prevent algae from growing again.

Final water cleanup phase - There should be a small amount of algae in the pool and little, if any, floc left. Have two or three new filter cartridges and put one in and continue the SLAM Process filtering the pool. You may destroy a cartridge or two if floc was still left in the pool but eventually you should end up with clear water.

This is all going to take time and patience and attention to the pool. There is no quick way to clear the water short of draining the pool and possibly replacing the liner. This is much more time and effort then any pool company gives and why they dump chemicals in and hope they get some miracle fix. You have seen how that works out.

electrodrew · Mar 16, 2024

Thanks for all the help and quick responses! Answers to questions are below.

How was filter bypassed?
Previous filter was a sand media filter with the multiport valve with all the settings. When the new filter was installed, the pool company added a valve to discharge to waste, but I was not present when they added the flocculant and used the pump so I have no idea how or if it was bypassed. When the sand filter was replaced, the company said it had half the amount of sand it should have and looked pretty old.

When was your filter last opened up and what did the cartridge look like?
The filter has been cleaned 2-3 times in the last month and I’m cleaning it today. Photos attached of the filter. I’m already planning to replace it once we get our water cleared up. The material on the filter pleats is pretty gummy and I assume this is the floc clumps being captured by the filter.

Was the floc vacuumed to waste?
Unfortunately no. Nothing settled out and we could barely see the first step into the pool. At best the water visibility has been only 2-3”.

What is your filter PSI?
When the cartridge was new, around 14 psi. After cleaning it’s around 18 psi and when I took the cartridge out today it was at 25.

Do you have a vacuum head and hose that connects to a skimmer for you to vacuum the pool floor?
Yes, but when we tried it 4-5 weeks ago, it became so clogged with leaves/debris that we stopped using it. We have not been able to see the pool floor and hesitant to attempt vacuuming until it’s cleared up.

Does the pool company have a standalone pool vacuum rig that can vacuum your pool without using your pump and filter?
The pool company has a standalone pool vac, but was also waiting to see the pool floor before using.

I appreciate all the help and support from everyone! As new pool owners, we’ve been intimidated by everything there is to learn about pool maintenance, particularly rehabilitating a neglected pool, and we’re learning the patience component! The three phases ajw22 laid out look great and we’ll start down this path this weekend.

As a side note, I pulled out a few jars of pool water a couple weeks ago and added some muriatic acid to see if it would help with the cloudiness. After leaving it for a few hours, the floc settled out to the bottom and the water was clear. I did not measure the amount of acid added or take a pH reading unfortunately, but it did settle out. This was more out of curiosity and I’m certainly hesitant to experiment with the entire pool again!

ajw22 · Mar 16, 2024

electrodrew said:
When the cartridge was new, around 14 psi. After cleaning it’s around 18 psi and when I took the cartridge out today it was at 25.

Note that 14 psi number.

Our guideline is the filter needs cleaning when the filter pressure increases by 25%. That says it needs cleaning around 17 - 20 PSI.

At 18 Psi after cleaning says the cartridge is already compromised in its filtering ability. But for right now if you can clean it to 18 PSI and then run it and clean it when it gets around 25 PSI you can get some filtering going. Running your filter once it hits 25 PSI will accomplish little.

electrodrew said:
Do you have a vacuum head and hose that connects to a skimmer for you to vacuum the pool floor?
Yes, but when we tried it 4-5 weeks ago, it became so clogged with leaves/debris that we stopped using it. We have not been able to see the pool floor and hesitant to attempt vacuuming until it’s cleared up.

It will not clear up without vacuuming to waste. You have to vacuum, clean out clogs, and repeat. It is a slog but the only way to get ahead.

electrodrew said:
Does the pool company have a standalone pool vacuum rig that can vacuum your pool without using your pump and filter?
The pool company has a standalone pool vac, but was also waiting to see the pool floor before using.

Either you do the cleaning work or pay the pool company to vacuum, clean, repeat.

As long as debris is being captured you are making progress vacuuming.

electrodrew said:
As a side note, I pulled out a few jars of pool water a couple weeks ago and added some muriatic acid to see if it would help with the cloudiness. After leaving it for a few hours, the floc settled out to the bottom and the water was clear. I did not measure the amount of acid added or take a pH reading unfortunately, but it did settle out. This was more out of curiosity and I’m certainly hesitant to experiment with the entire pool again!

Did you leave a jar of pool water to settle without adding acid?

The acidic pH may have broken the bonds of the floc. @JoyfulNoise what is your thought?

You don't want to lower the pH of your liner pool below the 7's as low pH can wrinkle a liner. You are already at the bottom of the range at 7.2.

JoyfulNoise · Mar 16, 2024

I don’t think that jar test really tells you anything without proper controls. In any small volume of water like that, leaving it to sit will result in some settling to occur and the clarity is misleading when looking at a small volume. A few inches of water that looks clear could easily be hazy and cloudy when it’s several thousand gallons and a few feet deep. People will often take water samples from green algae filled pools to do tests on and the water in the test tube will often look clear.

electrodrew · Mar 16, 2024

Thanks for the comments and tips. I just finished cleaning the filter and the startup PSI was 15/16. A LOT of clumpy debris came out and it took far longer than the pool company would put into it.

I can see white clumps floating around in the pool in the right lighting. Although the filter is back in at the moment, we may remove it as suggested when the pressure gets higher and needs cleaning again.

We pulled a sample jar a few days ago and left it sit overnight. Some material settled out, but not a lot.

ajw22 · Mar 16, 2024

electrodrew said:
Thanks for the comments and tips. I just finished cleaning the filter and the startup PSI was 15/16. A LOT of clumpy debris came out and it took far longer than the pool company would put into it.

Keep up with that filter cleaning cycle. Every bit is progress in getting the stuff out of the water.

electrodrew · Apr 4, 2024

Since originally posting almost 3 weeks ago, the pool is (slowly) getting clear enough to partially see the bottom. I've done my best to keep FC at SLAM level (12 ppm FC), but due to work schedules I have been only able to test and add liquid chlorine in the evenings. FC would dip to 6.5 at times and I would typically add extra chlorine when adjusting, particularly when the pine pollen was bad.

After multiple rounds of replenishing the water level after vacuuming, I've been concerned with the pool's pH since my community's water supply is known to be acidic (measured 6.2 a few months ago). A couple days ago when the FC/CC was 6.5/1.5, I tested pH with the Tayler kit and it was very yellow and appeared to be well below 7.0 on the comparator. The base demand test indicates roughly 7.5 lbs of soda ash is needed to bring pH up to 7.2. I tried testing CYA, but the test water did not get cloudy to obscure the black dot in the test vial.

Is this even an appropriate time anything other than FC/CC?

When should I start transitioning from the SLAM & clean up phase to correcting/adjusting pH?

The attached photo is from this morning. The dark area near the stairs is an area where the settled debris accumulates after the pump is turned off, so we focus on those to vac to waste.

kul · Apr 4, 2024

The PH test is not accurate when chlorine is over 10 so I would not recommend focusing on it at this time. You have made good progress with the slam, but keep going until you pass the criteria.

Lake Placid · Apr 4, 2024

electrodrew said:
Since originally posting almost 3 weeks ago, the pool is (slowly) getting clear enough to partially see the bottom. I've done my best to keep FC at SLAM level (12 ppm FC), but due to work schedules I have been only able to test and add liquid chlorine in the evenings. FC would dip to 6.5 at times and I would typically add extra chlorine when adjusting, particularly when the pine pollen was bad.

After multiple rounds of replenishing the water level after vacuuming, I've been concerned with the pool's pH since my community's water supply is known to be acidic (measured 6.2 a few months ago). A couple days ago when the FC/CC was 6.5/1.5, I tested pH with the Tayler kit and it was very yellow and appeared to be well below 7.0 on the comparator. The base demand test indicates roughly 7.5 lbs of soda ash is needed to bring pH up to 7.2. I tried testing CYA, but the test water did not get cloudy to obscure the black dot in the test vial.

Is this even an appropriate time anything other than FC/CC?

When should I start transitioning from the SLAM & clean up phase to correcting/adjusting pH?

The attached photo is from this morning. The dark area near the stairs is an area where the settled debris accumulates after the pump is turned off, so we focus on those to vac to waste.

If your FC falls under 10 and you want to test pH you will get an accurate result and can then adjust it up if necessary to get back into the 7’s. If your water is that acidic you don’t want it to fall under 7 and risk your liner.

You have made progress but your picture indicates you still have some ways to go to complete the slam. Are you still seeing traces of Floc and allowing it to settle then vacuuming to waste? SLAM is finished when all 3 criteria are met:

CC is 0.5 or lower
your overnight chlorine loss test shows 1.0 ppm of loss or less
pool water is crystal clear with no visible sign of algae

electrodrew · Apr 4, 2024

I did measure pH when FC was below 10, but I’m not sure the exact pH, just that it was surprisingly yellow and took 9 drops of reagent to bring it to 7.2.

There are still traces of floc floating when the pump is turned on, roughly 10% of what it used to be at its worst. The current routine is to clean the filter, run until PSI rises and/or flow slows, turn off the pump and allow to settle. The following day, vac to waste what I can, clean the filter and repeat. This is a 2-3 day cycle but I’m checking FC daily and adding chlorine as needed.

I installed a new filter cartridge today since the old one is probably well past being useful. Poor thing has been through heck.

ajw22 · Apr 4, 2024

electrodrew said:
The current routine is to clean the filter, run until PSI rises and/or flow slows, turn off the pump and allow to settle. The following day, vac to waste what I can, clean the filter and repeat. This is a 2-3 day cycle but I’m checking FC daily and adding chlorine as needed.

Keep the routine going.

JoyfulNoise · Apr 5, 2024

Are you vacuuming to waste or vacuuming to filter?

If floc is present, then you have to vacuum to waste otherwise the floc gets embedded into the filter media, degrades back into fine particulates, and then those fines are released back into the water. Floc should only ever be used when a pool has a vacuum to waste available.

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