Help with Long-Term pH and Calcium Hardness Management

Sierra801

Member
Oct 29, 2021
9
Phoenix, AZ
Third year pool owner in Phoenix, AZ. Pool specifics are:
10,846 gallons
Pebble-Sheen
SWG Pentair IntelliChlor IC40
Typical pool chemistry: FC 3-7, pH 7.9 to 8.5, TA 70, CH 150-1000 (see chart for 2023 test results), CYA 50, Salt 3400CH Chart.png

*Fill water is pH 8.5, TA 100, CH 100

Looking for recommendations to help manage pH and CH to keep CSI in non-scaling condition. With our very high pH fill water and high summer evaporation, acid addition is a daily chore to keep pH below 8.0. I asked our local pool store about an acid pump (IntellipH) and they looked at me like I was crazy. The pool store claims that they never install acid pumps because their failure rate is (reportedly) high in the desert heat. Are there other automation ideas or perhaps borates to assist moderating pH rise? We travel a fair bit in the summer and would like to manage pH where we could be gone for a week and not return to the pH sitting at 8.5.

Second, as can be seen by the chart above, a complete drain and refill has been required each winter to manage CH. By October 1 of the last 3 years CH has climbed above 650 and reaches 900-1000 by the end of the year. I suppose this is due to the 100 CH fill water again with high evaporation. We do not have a water softener system on the house and don't want to install one. I would try a portable RV style water softener if the experts here think that would get me 2 or 3 years between drain and refills.

Thank you for any help or ideas!
 
Welcome to the forum.

Your data implies your 100 ppm CH fill water (which is quite low for your area) in a year raised your CH in the pool from just under 200 to 1000 ppm. To achieve that, you would have had to evaporate 8 pool volumes in a year. That is not likely.

How are you testing your fill water and pool water chemistry?
 
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mknauss,
I use the automatic stirrer when doing this test. After the CH levels climb in the late spring, the test sample always changes very gradually from red, to violet/purple, and finally to blue as drops of R-0012 are added. Is this gradual change a "fading endpoint"? I have always continued to add R-0012 until the color remains blue and additional drops do not result in further color changes. Perhaps I need to start with the 5 drops of R-0012 before the R-0010 and R-0011L?
 
Your water (Colorado River Water I suspect) has iron in it. Not much, but enough. It also starts closer to 250 ppm CH, which is why I questioned your fill water CH.

Do the fading endpoint. Once your CH gets above 400 ppm, use distilled water to cut the sample 1:1 with pool water and double your result.
 
Water source can change through the year. Sometimes it is Colorado River Water, but it can also be Agua Fria River basin and ground water. I also wonder if CH/pH changes during the year as the water source changes.

Any thoughts on making pH management easier. The pool startup guy told me, “don’t chase pH, test it once per week, correct it with MA, and forget it until the next week”. It is hard for me to do this knowing if I follow that advise my pH will be well north of 8 at least 5 days per week.
 
When you are adding your high TA fill water you have to add acid. I add it twice a week from May to September.
 

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What Marty @mknauss said.
With our high TA fill water, we need to add acid several times a week.

You can also better control your pool CH by used softened water for your autofill/make up water. Either a whole house water softener plumbed to your autofill/make up water bib or a dedicated water softener for your pool. Some use an RV water softener for their pool. Be aware, a portable RV water softener requires manual regeneration - a whole house softener provided automatic regeneration.

I take it you're on the westside since you mentioned Agua Fria River water. You are also getting CAP water (and its associated high CH) as well - especially in summer.

Test your tap water every month or two for a year to see what TA, CH and pH are. This will provide you a better baseline.
If you use a water softener, set it for the highest CH/grains you measure during the year. Divide CH ppm by 17.1 to get gpg (grains per gallon) - which is usually the needed measurement for a water softener.
 
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Why the resistance to a water softener?

You can install one just for the pool. But your supply water is not doing the rest of your house any favors. It's going after all your faucets and fixtures, your dishwasher and washing machine, your toilets and shower surfaces, etc. You'll be replacing those items well before their time without a softener. If it's just a matter of what you drink and cook with, there are solutions for that.

I have very high CH city water. I chased pH and the hard water destroyed my pool's first finish (because the previous owner didn't manage it). I replaced the plaster, installed a softener, then an IntellipH, and problem solved! (Then I had to replace toilets, dishwasher and spent days cleaning glass.)

The IntellipH does have a reliability issue, but some smart folks here figured out a fix for it. I've yet to hear the IpH has any issues due to weather factors. Mine is in the sun half the day. It's fine. So enclose it if you're worried about it. Keep it out of the sun. If you're insistent about no soft water in the house, then build/buy a small shed and put the IpH and pool water softener in it (I wouldn't, because I want my IpH to vent to the open air, but it might work if you think you need to do that).

I went about five years without having to manage CH. Last year a replaced about 18" of water. Going forward I'm going to do much less more often, like a few inches once a year, depending on how much rain we get (my pool flushes CH when it rains). Ha, I refilled that chunk of water with my water softener!! Otherwise, I would have had to replace much more, because I would have been filling the pool with CH350 city water. By using zero-CH softener water, I was able to exchange a whole lot less. I'll share how I pulled that off if you're interested.

If your IntellliChlor stops working in the winter, the IpH will, too. I developed a workaround for that, and my IpH works year-round, even when my IC isn't. I'll share how I did that, too, if you're interested.

So this is all manageable with some automation. Otherwise, you're going to be pouring acid and draining your pool. Seems like a simple choice, but that is the choice.

I can leave my pool for a week without even thinking about it. And I think two weeks is possible. With the IC and IpH settings dialed in, I could conceivably leave it for a month or more, but pools need to be tested regularly, so that's not recommended. I test mine once a week even when I'm home. I spend about 10 minutes a week. The automation does the rest of the work. I fill my IpH tank a few times a year. Other than that, I don't handle acid jugs. Doing so several times a week is out of the question for me. And then it's just some liquid chlorine about 12 times a year (during the winter). I deal with CYA about twice a year. Salt once a year. That's it. My pool works for me, not the other way around.
 
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Testing reagents replaced each year. I went back through my Pool Math records and found a notation where I tested fill water CH at 275 on June 25, 2022. I think proavia's comments about CH varying through the year with shifts in our water sources is spot on. I will be more diligent this year in periodic testing of the fill water.
 
Why the resistance to a water softener?

You can install one just for the pool. But your supply water is not doing the rest of your house any favors. It's going after all your faucets and fixtures, your dishwasher and washing machine, your toilets and shower surfaces, etc. You'll be replacing those items well before their time without a softener. If it's just a matter of what you drink and cook with, there are solutions for that.

I have very high CH city water. I chased pH and the hard water destroyed my pool's first finish (because the previous owner didn't manage it). I replaced the plaster, installed a softener, then an IntellipH, and problem solved! (Then I had to replace toilets, dishwasher and spent days cleaning glass.)

The IntellipH does have a reliability issue, but some smart folks here figured out a fix for it. I've yet to hear the IpH has any issues due to weather factors. Mine is in the sun half the day. It's fine. So enclose it if you're worried about it. Keep it out of the sun. If you're insistent about no soft water in the house, then build/buy a small shed and put the IpH and pool water softener in it (I wouldn't, because I want my IpH to vent to the open air, but it might work if you think you need to do that).

I went about five years without having to manage CH. Last year a replaced about 18" of water. Going forward I'm going to do much less more often, like a few inches once a year, depending on how much rain we get (my pool flushes CH when it rains). Ha, I refilled that chunk of water with my water softener!! Otherwise, I would have had to replace much more, because I would have been filling the pool with CH350 city water. By using zero-CH softener water, I was able to exchange a whole lot less. I'll share how I pulled that off if you're interested.

If your IntellliChlor stops working in the winter, the IpH will, too. I developed a workaround for that, and my IpH works year-round, even when my IC isn't. I'll share how I did that, too, if you're interested.

So this is all manageable with some automation. Otherwise, you're going to be pouring acid and draining your pool. Seems like a simple choice, but that is the choice.

I can leave my pool for a week without even thinking about it. And I think two weeks is possible. With the IC and IpH settings dialed in, I could conceivably leave it for a month or more, but pools need to be tested regularly, so that's not recommended. I test mine once a week even when I'm home. I spend about 10 minutes a week. The automation does the rest of the work. I fill my IpH tank a few times a year. Other than that, I don't handle acid jugs. Doing so several times a week is out of the question for me. And then it's just some liquid chlorine about 12 times a year (during the winter). I deal with CYA about twice a year. Salt once a year. That's it. My pool works for me, not the other way around.
Dirk,
Thank you so much for your input! The information that you provided is what I was hoping for in posting on this forum.

I would greatly appreciate any information you would care to share regarding the steps that you and others have taken to improve the reliability/performance of the IntellipH. Installing this acid automation will be my first step in "making my pool work for me".

My reasons for not wanting to install a whole house water softener for the purposes of pool fill water are related to how I plumbed my backyard irrigation system and pool fill. I have the water for the back yard isolated from the house so that I can shut the house water off and my irrigation and pool fill are still live. I did all my own landscaping and plumbing install, and it would not be easy to run a new line from the house to the pool fill without significant disruption of landscaping. I will investigate a water softener for just the pool that I could install next to my pool equipment. Are you talking about one of the portable RV type softeners or something else for just the pool?

Thank you for your help.
 
Are you talking about one of the portable RV type softeners or something else for just the pool?
If you have a place for the regen effluent to go near the equipment pad, install a standard water softener just for the pool. I have a RV water softener as I do not have any place for the regen effluent to go near the pad. It works OK, need to manually regen every two weeks during the summer. Mine will give me about 800 gallons of no to very low CH water. So determine how much evaporation you are seeing and that will guide you. Also, I suggest putting an electric valve prior to the water softener so you can run the fill system just an hour or so a day. That way you can use a standard flow meter to read the amount of water being used.
 
My reasons for not wanting to install a whole house water softener for the purposes of pool fill water are related to how I plumbed my backyard irrigation system and pool fill. I have the water for the back yard isolated from the house so that I can shut the house water off and my irrigation and pool fill are still live. I did all my own landscaping and plumbing install, and it would not be easy to run a new line from the house to the pool fill without significant disruption of landscaping.

It's actually pretty easy to run a new line close to the house foundation. Or do like my neighbor did - run PEX (or similar) from the water softener in the garage up into the attic crawl space, exit thru the soffit, convert to PVC and run that line veritcally into the ground neat the existing autofill line.

In both instances, an additional backflow preventer and a couple true union PVC valves allow you to choose hard water or soft water for the autofill. Like you, we can isolate the softened house water and use hard water for when we are gone - but still have the autofill in use with hard water for however long we need.
 
Softener

My setup is near-identical to what Gene describes. My pool's auto-filler was plumbed to the landscape circuit, separate and before the indoor soft water circuit. I found a soft water line in the attic and ran it to where I needed, except I ran it down inside an exterior wall and then poked it out through the stucco (but Gene's MO is perfectly fine, too). I added a hose bib, for washing the car or solar panels. I added a proper backflow preventer. I left the original hard water source attached, and through a couple of valves I can choose hard or soft water (or mix them). I did this for a couple reasons, but primarily so that I could shut off my indoor circuit while away and still get water to the pool (though I've never used it because I don't travel much in the summer, I stay home and enjoy my pool).

I get that you don't want to dig up your yard. But for me, I did what I had to do and would again, even if it meant tearing out plants. Plants grow back, ruined plaster does not. The convenience alone was worth the trouble, and I had more than a little in the installation. I'm in my forever home, and the mods I describe in this post, while labor intensive, will provide benefits for the next several decades. That's how I look at it, anyway.

I bought a Whirlpool softener from Lowes. There are better ones, but mine had worked great. Not only did it solve my CH issue, but my whole house has thanked me! I also installed a Whirlpool whole-house water filter, and that has helped with the nasty water taste. I only drink water from the kitchen sink, which has an under-counter RO filter. I digress. My toilets look better. My shower glass. Lathering up is luxurious. I use less laundry soap. My shower heads and faucets look (and work!) like new, etc, etc.

Here's how I did it. This is in the middle of a very long thread, when I first came on board here, in which I was learning how to take care of my pool and deal with the hard water. But this is the section about adding the softener line: #76.


IntellipH

Shortish version: The IntellipH (IpH) is a companion to the IntelliChlor (IC) and requires its presence. It uses the IC's temperature and flow sensors and uses its power supply. The IC plugs into the IpH, and the IpH then plugs into where the IC was plugged in. The IpH then controls the IC. That's why when the IC stops producing in the winter, so does the IpH.

Inside the IpH controller is a plastic connector that routes the power that was originally going directly to the IC through the IpH's circuit board. This connector is underrated, and sometimes cannot handle the current draw of the IC (especially the bigger IC60), and when the connector's pins start to get a little corroded, they build up heat and eventually melt the connector, severing the power to the IC and sometimes the IpH, too. I kid you not. Pentair has known about this issue for years, could easily fix it, but hasn't yet (as far as I know). They tell people not to use the IpH with an IC60, though we know for a fact that the problem sometimes happens with an IC40. Instead, they just replace the controller under warranty.

The fix is simple, and has been verified sound by many of us here. But it'll likely void your warranty. So I always recommend not doing anything during the warranty period. Let Pentair fix it. Then on day one past the warranty's expiration, apply the fix. It's basically just wire-nutting some wires together inside the controller. Easy. You can wait until it melts and then fix it, or you can apply the same fix ahead of time and avoid the melting problem altogether.

It's not a guarantee this problem will happen to you. It probably doesn't happen to most, which is why Pentair doesn't fix it I guess. So I don't want to scare you off from an IpH. I LOVE mine and wouldn't own a pool without it. But the problem might occur, and you can fix it after it does, or before it happens. We have seen a few instances where the melt down fries the IpH circuit board, and then that requires a new board (not cheap). So if it were me, I'd apply the fix after the warranty expires and before it melts.

The other issue that I didn't like is losing the acid dispensing in the winter. So I devised a circuit that runs the IpH/IC combo normally in the summer, but bypasses the IC in the winter and allows the IpH to run year-round. It's not for the feint of heart, and will void your warranty for the IpH and your automation controller (if you have one). I waited until all my warranties expired, then installed the circuit. It's been working great. It's just some parts from Amazon and a soldering iron.

Whew, still with me? Some of us here have bypassed the IpH controller altogether and just run their IpH without it, using the scheduling circuits of their pool automation controller. That solves both the issues I describe above, but then you'd lose some of the great features (including great safety features) that Pentair devised for the IpH/IC combo. In terms of difficulty, this hack lies between the two I describe above. But if you're interested in any of these "fixes," we'll walk you through them step by step.

Here's a thread I wrote that you might find interesting. In addition to the winter wiring hack, it describes how I fixed my melted connector. That was before some others here came up with a much simpler method, which I describe at the end of this same thread:

If you make it even part way through either of the threads I just gave you (or even this post!), you'll realize instantly just who you've been conversing with, and may choose to stop! 🤪 No hard feelings!
 
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