Cement Dust in Pool water

[Gepool]

I know that maybe the following text will seem a bit excessive to you but I said to put my concern as there are several scientists in this group and they will be able to help me or reassure me.

Recently near the pool are I did some simple pavement work on the floor using concrete. As my pool does not have a cover and the builders are not always careful some considerable amounts of cement in liquid or solid form (dust) fell into the bottom of the pool. However, using Vaccum to waste and running the filter for a day the pool is now clean and balanced. No signs of dusty or cloudy water.

I found out today that the cements used had expired (about a year before).
Searching up what can go wrong with an expired cement, I saw that it can have an increased concentration of one element namely Chromium 6 (Cr6) which is highly toxic and very soluble in water.

Now, I am not concerned about the pavement work but about the safety of the pool water. Am I getting it too far? Would you suggest to empty and refill the pool?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

No. Don’t drain.

Unless there was chromium added to the cement before it was packaged and mixed then there’s no way that it can just magically appear once the cement has “expired”. That’s unscientific.

Whatever “information” you’ve come across online is just, well … nonsense. 99.9% of the information on the internet is flat out wrong or total BS. It’s mostly opinions of people who have no idea what they are talking about.

Feel free to put up links to what you’ve read but, at the end of the day, your pool water is fine.

 

[Gepool]

No. Don’t drain.

Unless there was chromium added to the cement before it was packaged and mixed then there’s no way that it can just magically appear once the cement has “expired”. That’s unscientific.

Whatever “information” you’ve come across online is just, well … nonsense. 99.9% of the information on the internet is flat out wrong or total BS. It’s mostly opinions of people who have no idea what they are talking about.

Feel free to put up links to what you’ve read but, at the end of the day, your pool water is fine.

Thank you for posting. I got the infrormation from the link below:

Can my cement still be used once it has passed its use by date?

Home Help Can my cement still be used once it has passed its use by date? Can my cement still be used once it has passed its use by date? We strongly recommend that you…

tarmac.com

Also, as mentioned in: Chromium (Cr) and water
"Chromium (VI) compounds are divided up in water hazard class 3, and are considered very toxic."

Read more: Chromium (Cr) and water

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I am well aware of the dangers of chromium compounds as I have worked with many. That link is to cement supplier website and it's related to a question about old cement. Of course the supplier is going to respond by saying not to use it because they don't want any liability associated with it's use and possible failure AND they get to sell more product. It's not something I would use to justify draining a pool.

If you look at the actual technical information out there from various research papers all the way to cement manufacturing industrial organizations, you find that the chromium they refer to typically finds its way into cement mostly from the steel grinding equipment used to crush up the raw materials that make up cement. In other words, it's a minor contaminant from the manufacturing process and it's typically only found in trace levels in the finished cement product. As such, cements are manufactured with other chemical agents that reduce any free chromium to it's less soluble and less dangerous form, trivalent chromium. Here is a better write up of the chromium content in cement that sites actual studies and papers -

Hexavalent Chromium in Cement Manufacturing: Literature Review | Uniwin Chemical Co., Ltd.

INTRODUCTION The purpose of this review is to summarize information related to hexavalen...

www.uniwinchemical.com

Even IF any chromium got into your pool water, the only effect would like be contact dermatitis and even the risk of that is rare. How much dust got into your pool? It could not have been that much since, according to your report, it cleared up very quickly. It only takes small amounts of fine dust to make water look cloudy.

At the end of the day, it's your pool, your money (for the water) and your peace of mind. If draining the pool makes you feel better about using it, then that's your call. But my opinion is the same, on technical grounds the "contamination" issue is overblown.

Others may feel differently ...

 

[JamesW]

We strongly recommend that you do not use any cement that has exceeded its use by date.

The use by date on cement is related to health and safety regulations about ‘chromium VI’ which can cause allergic dermatitis.

After the use by date on the bag we are unable to guarantee that ‘chromium VI’ is below the required legal limit, which could increase the risk of skin irritation.

See the material safety data sheet for the product you have purchased for more details.

Can my cement still be used once it has passed its use by date?

Home Help Can my cement still be used once it has passed its use by date? Can my cement still be used once it has passed its use by date? We strongly recommend that you…

tarmac.com

This really does not make any sense.

It implies that the concrete or cement will somehow accumulate chromium 6.

How would that happen?

Maybe they are thinking that the legal levels will change over time and the new regulations will have lower limits and that would make older product no longer within the legal limits?

Hexavalent chromium (chromium-6) was featured in the movie Erin Brockovich, in which Julia Roberts plays an activist leading a lawsuit against Pacific Gas & Electric for contaminating water with it.

Is total chromium or chromium-6 in drinking water a health concern?

The current federal drinking water standard for total chromium is 0.1 mg/l or 100 ppb.

Chromium-6 and chromium-3 are covered under the total chromium drinking water standard because these forms of chromium can convert back and forth in water and in the human body, depending on environmental conditions.

Measuring just one form may not capture all of the chromium that is present.

In order to ensure that the greatest potential risk is addressed, EPA's regulation assumes that a measurement of total chromium is 100 percent chromium-6, the more toxic form.

If tap water from a public water system exceeds this federal standard, consumers will be notified.

Chromium in Drinking Water | US EPA

Learn about chromium regulation in public drinking water systems and the potential that the regulation may be amended in the future to better address chromium-6.

www.epa.gov

Hexavalent Chromium - Overview | Occupational Safety and Health Administration

www.osha.gov

Overall, it’s unlikely that there is going to be any risk from a tiny amount of cement or concrete getting in the water.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Ferrous sulfate is added to cement to act as a reducing agent that will convert any free Cr(VI) into Cr(III) when the cement is mixed with water. The problem is that the EPA and other regulatory agencies demand that cement manufacturers place manufacturing dates and "acceptable" expiration dates on their products to ensure that all additives will remain stable and do what they are marketed to do. Ferrous sulfate doesn't last forever especially if the mix is exposed to high humidity or water contamination. There's not a lot of good data so the "lifetime" of the ferrous sulfate is set at an arbitrary value at which point the manufacturer says that it can't guarantee the product. It's all pretty much guesswork and cover your rear-end type warranties.

At the end of the day, if you look at modern cement mixes in the US, they are almost all free of Cr(VI) or the levels are so low that it's barely detectable. Regulations (especially from California) have all but forced cement products to be free of Cr(VI) contamination. It's only outside the industrialized world where cheaper manufacturing methods are employed and Cr(VI) is more of an issue.

So moral of the story .... don't buy cement manufactured in China.

 

[JamesW]

Corporations are particularly cautious because most lawsuits are based around the company not warning people of risks.

So, every company that makes any product goes overboard on describing every possible risk or side effect no matter how valid the concern is simply to try to limit their liability.

Every product you buy today comes with 10 pages of fine print describing every possible risk or danger that can possibly happen no matter how ridiculous.

This has created a situation where no one ever reads the fine print because it’s too overwhelming.

Out of 100 possible risks, there might be 1 or 2 that are worth worrying about, but these get buried in 98 other possible risks that should never happen.

Most products now carry the warning label below.

These Actual Warning Labels Will Make You Sigh For Humanity

"Don't pour coffee on crotch," "don't check fuel with lighted match," and more real, face-palming warnings on American products.

www.rd.com

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Corporations are particularly cautious because most lawsuits are based around the company not warning people of risks.

So, every company that makes any product goes overboard on describing every possible risk or side effect no matter how valid the concern is simply to try to limit their liability.

Every product you buy today comes with 10 pages of fine print describing every possible risk or danger that can possibly happen no matter how ridiculous.

This has created a situation where no one ever reads the fine print because it’s too overwhelming.

Out of 100 possible risks, there might be 1 or 2 that are worth worrying about, but these get buried in 98 other possible risks that should never happen.

Most products now carry the warning label below.


View attachment 453563

View attachment 453564

These Actual Warning Labels Will Make You Sigh For Humanity

"Don't pour coffee on crotch," "don't check fuel with lighted match," and more real, face-palming warnings on American products.

www.rd.com

View attachment 453567

Agreed!

Prop 65 warnings are the most idiotic thing ever invented. In CA, water in a cup comes with a Prop 65 warning. So the entire purpose of Prop 65 - to try to warn people against potential hazards - is made completely useless by it's overuse and legal liability.

But it's great business for the sticker manufacturers out there that have to print up and sell hundreds of millions of Prop 65 stickers every year.

 

[JamesW]

But it's great business for the sticker manufacturers out there that have to print up and sell hundreds of millions of Prop 65 stickers every year.

Even the Prop 65 stickers have to have a prop 65 warning label, which also has its own prop 65 warning label and so on which creates an endless loop.

 

[JamesW]

The maker of these plastic bags now has to put a warning label that says:

Not for storing or transporting gasoline.

Do not place bag over head while driving.

Do not eat this bag.

Do not use as a parachute.

 

[Gepool]

A really big thank you to all the participants for your time. I love to read documented answers.

The cement which entered the pool was as much as can be seen on the surface before the skimmer worked, tiny little dust on the surface which dissapeared (after 2-3 hours skimming).

At the bottom of the pool, near the pavement building works, there were 3 or 4 small solid "chunks" -probably- from a half empty package that felt and slid somehow (since there was cured cement at side walls) into the pool. I removed them by hand/scrapping since, as I said, the cement was "cured", solid.

 

[phonedave]

Agreed!

Prop 65 warnings are the most idiotic thing ever invented. In CA, water in a cup comes with a Prop 65 warning. So the entire purpose of Prop 65 - to try to warn people against potential hazards - is made completely useless by it's overuse and legal liability.

But it's great business for the sticker manufacturers out there that have to print up and sell hundreds of millions of Prop 65 stickers every year.

Prop 65 is nothing about safety. It is a money maker for the Government. You should see the fines that need to be paid if your products are not in compliance with Prop 65.

 

[JamesW]

Prop 65 is nothing about safety. It is a money maker for the Government. You should see the fines that need to be paid if your products are not in compliance with Prop 65.

You have to appreciate that California is so strict about maintaining law and order.

I mean, you can't have people going buck wild and just doing whatever they want.