Why would I need a mech timer with VSF pump (with built in timer )

Alset2

Gold Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
50
Cent Fl
Hello, 1st time posting but long time reader . We are filling our new pool tomorrow but I have a question that I cant seem to find an answer to and wanted some info before I ask my pool builder.

its a 15x30x6ft rectangle pool with 2 therapy jets and a 36" water fall (shear??) IC40 chlorinator ,no spa.

So all equipment was hooked up the other day and I really was not expecting to see a mech timer because I thought the pump (Sta-Rite IntelliPro VSF - part # 013004) had that built in.
Any way, any insight would be helpful .

Thank you
 

Alset2

Gold Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
50
Cent Fl
oh yeh. thank you
I was thinking (1st mistake..lol) that it would connect to the pump to communicate, but i think that I mixed that up with all my Easy Touch research .
I orignaly was going with automation at he onset ,but decided to wait and get used to my pool 1st . Plus my PB admited they are not very experienced with it
Thank you again
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
14,638
Bedford, TX
A,

The pump itself, can't really control anything... While a timer is needed to run the SWCG, most pool builders have no clue about doing that, so if it is for the SWCG, tell him he did a good job... That said, I suspect the timer is wired to control the power to the pump, which of course is wrong... But you can tell him to use it to control the power to the SWCG..

Let us know what you find out.

How are turning on your waterfall and therapy jets?

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
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Alset2

Gold Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
50
Cent Fl
Thanks Jim,
I will be controlling waterfall and jets manually via valves I suspect. They have not instructed me on operation yet, but thats what I suspect .
I will post back what they tell me about the timer . It is a single timer so I hope I get to tell them "good job"
I am partially educated and very mechanically inclined and it appears to me that the timer conduit is running to the pump which is what raised my question . I understand that it (the pump) could be wired to the hot side of timer, so there is hope yet...But I do not see any wiring for the SWG ?? There is only a blank in the plumbing at this time .

I dont want to talk bad about anyone, however I appreciate the info becasue i have caught them seemingly feeding me ,how do you say this ...very suspect explanations... and Id like to have as much info as I can . This pool is a lot of money to us and I want it right. I also have every intention of going to ET very soon and don't want to make too big a deal out of something that will not matter once I convert .
I am getting another company to do that due to my PB admitting they have only done a couple . Seems like something I want experienced people doing ,call me crazy! I explained my situation to the owner thats going to install the ET about this situation. He actually knows my PB and gave them high marks, but agreed with the automation thinking.
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
14,638
Bedford, TX
A,

Assuming he has wired the timer to control the pump, then (as you say) the pump needs to be wired to the line side of the timer.. the load side of the timer should power the salt cell power supply, not the cell itself... You then set the timer to run "inside" the time the pump is scheduled to run..

As an example... If the pump is scheduled to run 7 am until 7 pm, the set the timer to run say 8 am until 6 pm... The timer is the Primary safety device and the flow switch is the Secondary safety device, in case the pump fails to run... The actual time you set depends on you, and if you want to run your pump a long time, and set the SWCG's output to a low percentage, or set the output to 100%, and run the pump/timer for the shortage time needed to generate the chlorine you need.

You should see the Salt system power center mounted near the equipment pad somewhere... Looks like this... Pentair 520556 Intellichlor Chlorine Generator Power Center

Thanks,

Jim R.
 

Alset2

Gold Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
50
Cent Fl
Ok, so they started up our pool last night and I asked him about this VSF/timer question . He readily volunteered that the pump could run with out the timer but that they had stopped doing that becasue it caused them problems with the salt cell "blowing up" (his term, not mine lol) .He actually told me he just left a house fixing this very issue ....

So I wanted to ask then "whats the point of the VSF pump?" ,but I dont want to sound like I am being overly critical.
The other thing he showed me was that to run my water fall or therapy jets I have to turn down the returns. This is exactly what I thought I would avoid by upgrading to the VSF pump. But I have been guilty of mis understating before..lol

I am thinking this is not worth the hassle of bringing up with PB since in a few months I will be having an easy touch system installed and this set up will not matter...is this a correct line of thinking?

And once again, thank you all for you time and responses on this . I look forward to learning even more from you guys as this goes on

PS- he did state that he SWG cell is connect to the timer also- He said when the pump is on , so is the SWG
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
14,638
Bedford, TX
A,

I believe that it will take longer to get your pool builder to understand what he needs to do then it would be to just wait for your EasyTouch. :mrgreen:

How the system is plumbed is the main thing that would prevent you from running your returns at the same time as your waterfall.. In theory, with an EasyTouch, you would select "waterfall" and a valve would turn to allow water to flow to the waterfall, and the pump would change speeds to make the waterfall look the way you want..

At lot of this has to be decided before the pool is built... If you have a huge water fall, even a VS pump may not be able to pump enough water to make it work well.. Big waterfalls need pumps specifically made for waterfalls.

Back to your timer... Are you saying the timer turns off your VS pump? Are you saying the pump only runs one speed? If so this is not correct...

Show us some pics of the timer so that we can see where the wires go inside and we might be able to give you some ideas..

Show us some pics of your plumbing and we can give you some feedback..

It would really help us if you filled out your Pool's Signature, just line mine.. It helps us understand what equipment and style of pool you have.. (Setting then Signature)

Thanks,

Jim R.
 

Alset2

Gold Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
50
Cent Fl
Thanks Jim, I will answer what I can below and will fill out my signature when I get home.
The waterfall is actually a 36" shear descent

The pool builder was aware of my interest in adding ET later, not sure if that helped me or not but hopefully the pics will help shed some light .I actually have some with me that I sent to the ET supplier/ installer but I wil get more later when I get home. We actually discussed doing ET install at build but they told me they had only done a couple and seemed not to interested in doing it , so I dropped it.

Yes, the timer will turn off the pump- this is actually how he told me to turn off the pump to clean filters .
He told me the pump is set to run at 2400 rpms, he said nothing about it changing speeds except that in about 3 weeks when they install the salt cell he might change the speed at that time.

I will get better over all pics and fill finish signature later when I can get all that info.

20190818_094251.jpg20190818_094342.jpg20190814_171415.jpg08-19-19 -jalf full of water DJI_0304.JPG
 
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Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
14,638
Bedford, TX
A,

Spa? I assume this is your therapy jets, as I don't see a spa???

I'll wait for your other pics to reply.

Thanks,

Jim R.
 

Alset2

Gold Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
50
Cent Fl
Not sure, I have 2 people giving me quotes . I originally wanted the "non-light" version, but not sure now? I am going to see what each supplier suggests and probably be back asking about that too..lol
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
14,638
Bedford, TX
After I see some better pics of the plumbing, I'll give you a couple of options on which automation to buy... It really is how much you want to spend and what you expect the system to do.

Thanks,

Jim R.
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
14,638
Bedford, TX
A,

I need pics of the inside of the time clock controlling the pump.. I need to see where the wires on the inside go.

You have three valves on your return line... Return, Spa, and Waterfall.. If you want to control all three valves, you will have to get creative if using an EasyTouch (ET)

An EasyTouch only has two user programmable valve drivers.. So your options are:

1. Buy a single body ET4... Leave the return valve open all the time and add an actuator to the Spa valve A and the Waterfall valve B.. The problem with this option is that you will most likely have to run your pump at close to full speed to have your Spa or Waterfall work.. and I really doubt that you would be able to run your spa and waterfall at the same time.. You would still need to buy two actuators...

Ref... Pentair Easy Touch Control Base System 520591

2. Buy a dual body ET4.. You could then have all three valves controlled by actuators.. Spa valve A and Waterfall valve B, and by putting the system in the "Spa" mode, you could control your Return valve. This unit comes with two actuators, so you would only need to buy one more.

Ref.. Pentair Easy Touch Control Base System 520538

To make the EasyTouch easy to program and use, you would need ScreenLogic...

Ref... Pentair ScreenLogic Interface and Wireless Connection Kit 522104



I suggest that you operate the pool without an automation system for while and see what you really use and what you do not use.. Waterfalls sound great in theory, but very often they are very noisy and it is like living next to a freeway..

I think we can get you running manually and this will give you a chance to evaluate what you want/need...

I am "assuming" that the salt cell is being provided by the pool builder.. If not, then let me know as ET's with included salt systems have different numbers (and pricing)

As much as I love my EasyTouch, I would be remiss in not having you look at the new Pentair IntelliCenter automation system, which is better and has many more options..

Thanks,

Jim R.
 

Alset2

Gold Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
50
Cent Fl
Jim, here are the pics, I hoe they are helpful
I am certainly getting screen logic and yes PB is supplying IC40. They are waiting 2 weeks to install it so as not to damage it from all the brushing we are doing every day.

A few minutes looking at Intellicenter it seems interesting. It appears you have to purchase multiple package to complete this set up. Seems like the i5P is what I would be looking for correct?

BTW, is thumbnail or full image the preferred way to attach pics here?

TIMER.jpgTIMER OVER ALL.jpgTIMER COVER.jpg
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
14,638
Bedford, TX
A,

Either format works for me..

To fix your pump problem, you just need to move two wires...

Your 220 VAC power comes in on the left side of the timer box and goes to pin 1 and pin 3 on two red wires. Currently, both the pump and salt power center are connect to pins 2 and 4 with red wires.. This of course, means that the pump only runs when the timer is on.

If you look at the bottom of the box you can see that the power center is connected to the bottom left conduit and the pump is connected to the bottom right conduit. If you take the two red wires going to the pump and move them from pin 2 to pin 1 and from pin 4 to pin 3, your pump will then have constant power. The Power Center will still be controlled by the timer.

Obviously, you do this with the power to the timer off.

Once you get the pump powered up all the time, then you will need to (read the manual) and program the pump with how you want the pump to run..

You then set the timer so that it only turns on the SWCG inside the time the pump is scheduled to run.. Here is an example..

If the pump runs from 8 am until 8 pm, you would set the timer so that SWCG gets power from 9 am until 7 pm.. this gives you a little slop in case the timer and pump are not in perfect sync.

As far as pump speeds, I would set the lowest speed to whatever it takes to turn on your SWCG's flow switch plus 100 RPM.. I suggest that you always use RPM and never use GPM...

You can schedule your pump to run different speeds during the day if you want, but until you get your automation it might make sense to just program the speeds into the pump and use the pump buttons to control things.. For example..

To turn on your "Spa" push button 2 at 3000 RPM and manually rotate the Spa valve

To turn on your "waterfall" push button 3 at 2500 RPM and manually rotate the waterfall valve

I have no clue what actual RPMs will work for you, you will just have to experiment and see what works best for each situation.

Please let me know if this does not make sense.

Thanks,

Jim R.