What size breaker do I need?

tstex

Silver Supporter
Aug 28, 2012
2,002
Houston, TX
That's why I would go with the 30 amp Siemens from Home Depot.

[edit]Based on the manual, I would use the Siemens 15 Amp Double Pole Type QPF2 GFCI Circuit Breaker.

[end edit]

View attachment 382082
James,

If going w a 30amp breaker for a hayward VSPump, doesn't that raise the mA threshold higher than rated for that pump, thus leave it exposed to potential damage for not shutting down when to much noise from the harmonics is supposed to flip the breaker? If the board design has any issues, that could potentially cause it to keep working and then malfunction at a much higher mA threshold along w more heat too. thanks
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
29,572
If going w a 30amp breaker for a hayward VSPump, doesn't that raise the mA threshold higher than rated for that pump, thus leave it exposed to potential damage for not shutting down when to much noise from the harmonics is supposed to flip the breaker?
Based on the manual, I would use the Siemens 15 Amp Double Pole Type QPF2 GFCI Circuit Breaker.

They used to make a 20 amp breaker, but it seems to be discontinued.

In any case, the 15 amp breaker should be fine for any pump that uses 12 amps or less.

The IntelliFlo is rated at 16 amps, which would require a 20 amp breaker, which is what is shown in the manual.

Electrical Specifications Circuit Protection: Two-pole 20 AMP device at the Electrical Panel. Input: 230 VAC, 50/60 Hz, 3200 Watts Maximum, 1 phase.

Pentair offers 2-Pole 20 Amp GFCI breakers (P/N PA220GF) which offer personnel protection while meeting 2008 to current NEC Standards for Pool Pumps.


The breaker size from the manual should be used and therefore a 30 amp breaker is not suitable.

The milliamp protection remains the same in any case with a class A rating, which is 4 to 6 milliamps.
 
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JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
29,572
noise from the harmonics is supposed to flip the breaker?
The GFCI protection protects people from leaked current.

Harmonics can cause false trips, but the breaker is not designed to detect harmonics.

In fact, the better breakers are designed to be shielded from the effects of harmonics that can cause false trips.

Double-pole, 240-Volt, 15 Amp GFCI circuit breaker

10 kA interrupting rating

Includes self-test as required by UL 943 as an added safety feature

Suitable for a variety of construction applications including spas, hot tubs, kitchens, bathrooms, etc.

Resists false tripping (shielded to prevent RF interference)

Provides class A GFCI protection


White line neutral (pigtail) must be connected to the panel neutral for the device to function.

Pentair offers 2-Pole 20 Amp GFCI breakers (P/N PA220GF) which offer personnel protection while meeting 2008 to current NEC Standards for Pool Pumps.

The Pentair is is the same as the Siemens 20 Amp Double Pole Type QPF2 GFCI Circuit Breaker.

The Pentair 20 amp seems to be still available, but at a ridiculous price.

The Siemens is still available as the stock sells out, but the price is high.




GFCI circuit breakers have three trip mechanisms, thermal, magnetic and GFCI.

The GFCI part for a Class A device trips at 4 to 6 milliamps for all breakers.

The magnetic mechanism trips due to short circuits creating a very high current, which creates a magnetic trip, which is instantaneous on all breakers.

The thermal mechanism trips due to heating when the current exceeds the breaker rating.

A circuit breaker should be able to carry its full rated load continuously without tripping.

The first (and most common) misconception is that a breaker trips when its nameplate rating is exceeded.

One fire text has stated (incorrectly) that a circuit breaker will trip in several minutes with a small increase in current over its rating.

Actually, a 20 amp breaker must trip at a sustained current of 27 amperes (135 percent) at less than one hour, and at 40 amperes (200 percent of wire rating) in less than 120 seconds—far different from what the cited text implies.

These two trip points (135 percent and 200 percent) are defined in NEMA Standard AB-1, MCCBs and Molded Case Switches.

The basic circuit breaker used in both residential and light commercial applications is called the T-M or Thermal Magnetic Circuit Breaker.

Another term that is sometimes used is the MCCB, or Molded Case Circuit Breaker.

The T-M circuit breaker has two independent trip mechanisms: thermal and magnetic.

The former reacts to overloads and causes the breaker to trip, while the latter responds to short circuit fault currents.

 

tstex

Silver Supporter
Aug 28, 2012
2,002
Houston, TX
That is not the purpose of a GFCI CB or what it is designed to do.
Hi Allen

I certainly understand the principles of GFCI and it’s goal to detect any grounding interrupts, mainly humans in wet prone areas. However, w a GFCI breaker tripping quite often (3-4 times per month) w no human or environmental inducing elements. something else is definitely happening that GFCI breaker were indeed not designed to do.

Do some searches on the Mike Holt electrical forum, a formidable expert in electricity, NEC, electrical examinations testing, etc. I traded direct emails w him and some of his fellow experts. You cannot register on the forum unless your a licensed electrician, electrical ENGR on up. Therefore, he allowed me to email him directly on the issues of the Siemens DP 20 AMP GFCI Breaker/Circuit w the Hayward EcoStar 2.7HP VSP. Variable speed driven technologies w GFCI circuit breakers AND flawed board designs, do indeed present a major challenge to pool consumers. That’s my point when you combine these elements.

As always, thanks for your contributions.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
29,572
The 20 amp siemens might be temporarily unavailable.

I can't imagine they would discontinue it while continuing the other breakers.

Maybe someone can contact Siemens to inquire.

The 15 amp might be acceptable even for an Intelliflo if the Intelliflo is going to be limited to 12 amps.

You can measure the amperage and then increase the speed until the amperage hits 12 amps and then you know where the maximum pump speed should be set.

The IntelliFlo at a maximum of 2,750 rpm would probably be ok with a 15 amp circuit breaker.

I just can't see spending close to $200.00 for a circuit breaker when you can get one for about $100.00.
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
35,373
Northern NJ
Pool Size
35000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
The IntelliFlo at a maximum of 2,750 rpm would probably be ok with a 15 amp circuit breaker.

I just can't see spending close to $200.00 for a circuit breaker when you can get one for about $100.00.

All that is doing is setting a booby trap for the next owner of the home who has no idea why the pump was limited to 2700 rpm and ups the speed and then has problems with the breaker.

An additional $100 for the correct breaker is a small sum in what is being spent on the pool.

Do it right the first time.
 
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wireform

Silver Supporter
In The Industry
Aug 15, 2017
3,895
Spring Valley, NY
I'll let all argue the electrical....
Just looking at the pictures of the equipment pad, gosh how's anyone going to work in there when the need arises to there's no room to stand let alone problem solve or even routine maintenance.
 

1poolman1

In The Industry
Jul 14, 2014
1,691
Sacramento
I'll let all argue the electrical....
Just looking at the pictures of the equipment pad, gosh how's anyone going to work in there when the need arises to there's no room to stand let alone problem solve or even routine maintenance.
Someone "forgot" to check codes and manufacturer's requirements. There is supposed to be at least 3' in the clear in front of that electrical panel. Look up electrical clearance and you will find this:

"The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) and the National Electrical Code (NEC), require that electrical panels have a minimum of 3 feet (36 inches) of clearance and a minimum headroom of 6.5 feet or the height of the equipment whichever is greater."

If I was called to service this equipment I would turn and walk away. Don't want my "fingerprints" on such a bad installation. Hayward calls for the front of the heater to have no obstructions for access and ventilation.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
29,572
Is this room enclosed?

How are you going to vent the heater?

Are you providing fresh air supply?

pxl_20211113_212503922-jpg.382151
 

Mleads310

Member
Aug 23, 2021
17
New York
Surface
Vinyl
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-9)
The room dimensions of room are 5x9 and 9ft height.. I will have two wall vents installed with one being a fan. I will have direct vent ran straight thru the roof.
 

BMerrill

Gold Supporter
Mar 8, 2021
188
Ayden, North Carolina
Pool Size
17860
Surface
Fiberglass
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
I recently completed the installation of the Omnilogic HLBase unit. As for the wiring, ran 100amp 2/2/2/4 aluminum feeder to a master service disconnect next to the Omnilogic base. Then 4/4/4/8 copper to the Omni base. Installed a 240- 20amp GFIC breaker for the pump, 240-15 amp GFIC for gas heater, 20 amp GFIC for the relays that controller the 3 light transformers, 20 amp GFIC spare, 20 amp non-GFIC for the outlet at the panel and convenience outlets near the pool. The convenience outlets are GFIC at the outlet for easy resetting. Also installed the Siemens breaker style surge protector in the panel, as all 3 other panels in the dwelling have whole house surge protectors installed. All wire from the panel is 12 gage copper.
Light transformers are mounted next the panel with feeders to junction boxes closer to the pool.
If you have questions about wiring the Omnilogic base let me know.
 

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