What is actually in Jack's Magic stain solution #1?

JasonLion

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May 7, 2007
37,879
Silver Spring, MD
#1
From this thread:

JasonLion said:
Jacks #1 is not ascorbic acid, though it works in a related way.
waterbear said:
Jack's magic #1, according to the MDSD is 100% a non hazardous propriatary formula. Since it works on iron, and cobalt it is either ascorbic acid or oxalic acid. Since oxalic acid is toxic AND corrosive if ingested, inhaled, or absorbed through the skin in dry form and ascorbic acid is not (it's another name for vitamin c) I would make an educated guess that it IS just ascorbic acid but I have no actual proof of this. However the MSDS for Jack's #1 and for ascorbic acid are strikingly similar!
Jack's says practically nothing about what is in stain solution #1. They do, however, give a solubility in water number which is half of the solubility of ascorbic acid. The dosage amounts are double the typical dosage for ascorbic acid. They also refer to it as non-acidic. Ascorbic acid is an acid, though a weak one.

On the other hand the appearance and safety considerations are identical to ascorbic acid. If it isn't ascorbic acid it isn't obvious what else it could be. The solubility number could simply be wrong and everything else just marketing. Or maybe there is something in there in addition to ascorbic acid.
 
G
#2
JasonLion said:
Jack's says practically nothing about what is in stain solution #1. They do, however, give a solubility in water number which is half of the solubility of ascorbic acid. The dosage amounts are double the typical dosage for ascorbic acid. They also refer to it as non-acidic. Ascorbic acid is an acid, though a weak one.

On the other hand the appearance and safety considerations are identical to ascorbic acid. If it isn't ascorbic acid it isn't obvious what else it could be. The solubility number could simply be wrong and everything else just marketing. Or maybe there is something in there in addition to ascorbic acid.
Interesting catch. Also the solubility matches that of oxalic acid! Where do they refer to it as non acidic? I have all the dealer literature to the Jack's like and access to the dealer area of their website and didn't see that anywhere. (doesn't mean I just didn't see it!)
As far as teh solubility, They specifically list it at 25 deg C. I do know that the solubility of ascorbic acid is somewhat temperature dependent but don't have quick access to the solubility at different temperatures. Many of the Material Safty Data sheets list the solubility of Asorbic acid at 33g/100ml at 30 deg C.

(Jason, you might want to remove the relevant portions of our posts to "the Deep End". I have to get ready for work now or I would do it myself. thanks!) Done. JasonLion
 
G
#4
JasonLion said:
On Jack's Magic product page they say:

(STAIN SOLUTION #1) is a non-acidic product for removing iron, cobalt, and spot-etching stains from all types of pool surfaces without draining the pool.
This could be marketing hype since oxalic acid and ascorbic acid are not 'acid' in the sense that an acid wash would be.
Remember, dropping the pH low will also reduce many metal stains.
I don't think it could be a sulfite since those are extremely soluble.


EDIT: I did some further research and discovered that GLB Stain Magnet,which is a similar product, is a mixture of sodium sulfite and sodium erythrobate. Sodium erythrobate is also known as sodium ascorbate and is the sodium salt of isoacorobic acid (erythrobic acid). This susbstance is a steroisomer of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) It's solubility is the same as the Jack's Magic product (15 g/100 ml @ 25 deg C) and is commonly used in food products as an anti-oxidant (reducing agent) similar to vitamin c (ascorbic acid) and in photography as a developer (photographic developers are reducing agents also). Seems that it is also used in at least one pool stain treatment (GLB's) and possibly more!
 

Jason B

Well-known member
Jun 1, 2007
62
USA
#5
Re:

waterbear said:
JasonLion said:
On Jack's Magic product page they say:

(STAIN SOLUTION #1) is a non-acidic product for removing iron, cobalt, and spot-etching stains from all types of pool surfaces without draining the pool.
This could be marketing hype since oxalic acid and ascorbic acid are not 'acid' in the sense that an acid wash would be.
Remember, dropping the pH low will also reduce many metal stains.
I don't think it could be a sulfite since those are extremely soluble.


EDIT: I did some further research and discovered that GLB Stain Magnet,which is a similar product, is a mixture of sodium sulfite and sodium erythrobate. Sodium erythrobate is also known as sodium ascorbate and is the sodium salt of isoacorobic acid (erythrobic acid). This susbstance is a steroisomer of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) It's solubility is the same as the Jack's Magic product (15 g/100 ml @ 25 deg C) and is commonly used in food products as an anti-oxidant (reducing agent) similar to vitamin c (ascorbic acid) and in photography as a developer (photographic developers are reducing agents also). Seems that it is also used in at least one pool stain treatment (GLB's) and possibly more!
I know this is old, but I had some metal stains and used the GLB product you mentioned above. What do you mean by steroisomer of absorbic acid? Does that mean it's very similiar to absorbic acid? I was going to buy absorbic acid in bulk and it's funny that the GLB stuff seems to hide what's in it. Nothing on the label, nothing on their website about ingredients.
 

JohnT

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Apr 4, 2007
9,459
SW Indiana
#6
Re: Re:

Jason B said:
I know this is old, but I had some metal stains and used the GLB product you mentioned above. What do you mean by steroisomer of absorbic acid? Does that mean it's very similiar to absorbic acid? I was going to buy absorbic acid in bulk and it's funny that the GLB stuff seems to hide what's in it. Nothing on the label, nothing on their website about ingredients.
A stereoisomer is a molecule that has the same atoms but a different geometric arrangement. In some situations the behavior of stereoisomers is identical or similar. In others, not so much.