Water temp critical for Jack's copper?

TheBandit

Member
Dec 23, 2019
16
Ventura County CA
I used a stain test kit on my plaster in ground pool and found Jack's no2 copper & scale remover was really effective at removing a stain I've watched build up over the last four or five years. I bypassed an old 1960s heater that I assume was the source of the copper staining and now I'd like to treat the whole pool before I dump the water.

The problem is the instructions dictate a minimum water temp of 65 degs. My pool is currently between 55-60 deg.

What effect would this have on the copper treatment? Would it not work at all or just take longer?
 

YippeeSkippy

Mod Squad
LifeTime Supporter
Jan 17, 2012
11,802
Evans, Georgia
hmmm... I dunno? Can you call the manufacturer and ask? They are often eager to help with their product use. And you can then tell us!

Sorry I'm not any more help than that.

Maddie :flower:
 

sktn77a

Gold Supporter
May 16, 2010
1,443
Chapel Hill, NC
Chemical reactions are temperature dependent but the difference between 55F and 65F isn't that much. I'd go ahead with the treatment, just leave it a little longer.
 

TheBandit

Member
Dec 23, 2019
16
Ventura County CA
Thank you for the kind replies! At your advice, I contacted Jack's Magic. They told me the temperature would be okay, although it would take longer to work. They were concerned that I might have too high of calcium and dissolved solids and felt it might interfere with the treatment. They recommend I do a water change or partial water change to bring those inline before treating.

I went to the local pool supply to get more information than my home test kit can. Here's the relevant info:
CH 620ppm (high)
CYA 25ppm (lowish)
TA 70ppm (ok)
Copper 0.2ppm (high)
Iron 0ppm (ok)
TDS 3500 (high)
Pho 600ppb (high)

The pool supply recommended I do a half water change, add a sequestrant, and put CuLater in my skimmer to remove the copper from the water. Then I could treat the stain with a scale remover. They also recommended treating the phosphate.

I've never heard of the CuLater product. Any comment on how effective that is at capturing copper? I wonder if I could treat the stain then use the CuLater to get the copper out of the water afterwards.
 

YippeeSkippy

Mod Squad
LifeTime Supporter
Jan 17, 2012
11,802
Evans, Georgia
We haven't heard of much positive from the Culater. Sure it might help remove a little bit but you need to drain and replace water to do any significant lowering of copper. Do you know *how* the copper got into the pool?? Any cheap algaecides being used? Pucks with "Blue" or "Xtra" in the name- implies they can contain copper too. Do you fill from a well?

Next issue is you *need* your own reliable test kit. Bite the bullet- you need accuracy and reliability. I prefer the TF-100 as it has the most amount of reagents for the test we do most often. www.tftestkits.net
Your other approved by TFP option is the K-2006C. It costs more than the TF-100 though. The simpler K-2006 is cheaper but the reagents are much more skimpier.

Maddie :flower:
 
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TheBandit

Member
Dec 23, 2019
16
Ventura County CA
Thank you for the reply and questions Maddie.

For testing I actually do use a K-2006 kit but it doesnt test TDS or phosphates. I can test pH, TA, CH, CYA, FC, and CC. I test and adjust pH and chlorine weekly. The others I have only tested every few months and I've only had to adjust TA and CYA levels a few times in the last 5 years (they tend to not change much). The CH has always been high and I haven't done any water changes yet. Summer before last I started getting salt precipitate on top of my pool cover and I started to notice the copper staining being worse, but did not know what it was until researching on TFP.

I have not used any algaecides or pucks in my pool. I suspect the copper came from the old 1960s pool heater that was plumbed in line (with no bypass). I plumbed it out of the system just a couple weeks ago, although the in-ground piping to the pool is still 1-1/2in copper.

I am not on well water although I also don't know the quality of the water coming in.

If water change is the best way to get rid of the copper, then it seems the best order of operation would be to lift the staining first then do the water change.
 

mknauss

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
Bronze Supporter
May 3, 2014
22,752
Laughlin, NV
TDS and phosphates have no bearing on pool water chemistry.

TDS is just a combined term of all kinds of things. Since you can test the two most important, CH and CYA, the balance is primarily salt, which does not matter unless you have a SWCG.

Phosphates do not matter if you maintain your FC using the FC/CYA Chart.
 
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YippeeSkippy

Mod Squad
LifeTime Supporter
Jan 17, 2012
11,802
Evans, Georgia
You're right Bandit, lifting the copper staining off the walls and into the water then drain and refill is the best order of business.

 

TheBandit

Member
Dec 23, 2019
16
Ventura County CA
Thank you for all the replies. I'll start shopping for a fully-submersible pump and get some jacks no2 and sequestrant on order. I plan to treat the existing water/stain with jacks no 2 then full water change and restart after the stains are up.

Any precautions I need to consider? Any risks of damage by fully draining the pool? I'll search for threads as I'm sure this has been discussed before
 

YippeeSkippy

Mod Squad
LifeTime Supporter
Jan 17, 2012
11,802
Evans, Georgia
The biggest risk is if you have a high water table in your yard? Empty pools are like boats... water pressure below them can make them *pop!* right outta the ground. The water weight keeps the pool "weighted down".

Fiberglass pools should almost never be drained. Vinyl should only be drained to about 18" in the shallow end (to protect liner). Plaster pools can be drained (with normal caution) but sun and heat can damage the plaster if left empty too long.

Best plan of action is to take care of repair work, etc, and then refill pronto!

Maddie :flower:
 

TheBandit

Member
Dec 23, 2019
16
Ventura County CA
Thank you for the kind reply! I will follow your advice. My house is located on a foothill and I suspect we are above the water table. There is a retaining wall roughly 6ft from the pool, on the other side of which the grade drops below the deepest level of our pool. I don't know what kind of soil engineering was done back in the 60s, but it remarkably appears to have held up in this position without signs of shifting.

I expect I will have to drain the pool into a nearby main line sewer cleanout. I am pretty sure it's a 4" line, which leads from there directly out to the main sewer at the street. I do not currently own a submersible pump - will a 1/2hp 1,800gph (30gpm) pump be okay for pumping into the sewer?
 

mknauss

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
Bronze Supporter
May 3, 2014
22,752
Laughlin, NV
That submersible will work fine. It will not pump nearly that rate using a garden hose for the effluent. I normally get 6-7 gpm.
 

TheBandit

Member
Dec 23, 2019
16
Ventura County CA
Thank you for the response. I would use a 1-1/2" drain hose which I currently use to drain rinse water form my DE filter housing when I'm doing filter cleanings. I did a little checking on sewer pipe flow capacities and it looks like a 4" line with a 1% grade (1/8in per foot) can take around 35-40gpm based on the charts here. That should be okay for an 1,800gph / 30gpm flow rate, which it sounds like I may not get anyway.

Another question - in one location I have a few inch long gouge in the plaster that I'd like to patch. With the pool drained, should I use a "wet patch" plaster since I plan to refill the pool soon after draining?
 

TheBandit

Member
Dec 23, 2019
16
Ventura County CA
Update
I started the Jacks Magic no2 treatment process yesterday. I set my pump to run continuously 24hrs: 2,000rpm from 8a-8p and 1,500rpm from 8p-9a (our electric rates go up at night). I adjusted the pH to about 7.2, FC to 2ppm before starting. Then I added, per Jack's instructions, 1gal of muriatic acid, let that circulate for 30min, then added 2qt of the Blue Stuff sequestrant, let that circulate for 30min, then added 20lb of no2. For the no2 I cast about 5lb directly into the pool over the heaviest stained area at the deep end. For the remainder I predissolved in a 5gal bucket of pool water and distributed around the perimeter of the pool. I noticed very little no2 making it to the bottom of the pool - it seemed to dissolve readily.

The next morning after 17hrs I checked the pool and noticed small specks of same - size particles spread evenly across the bottom of the pool, perhaps 3-4 inches apart. When brushed they move around freely. I thought they might be dirt or pollen but since I've never seen this in my pool before I'm thinking the specks may be metal precipitate. I plan to run my vacuum to pick them up, then immediately rinse the vacuum thoroughly since it will be exposed to whatever low pH water conditions are in there now.

So far after 17hrs it's hard to say if the stains are lifting. They look very slightly lighter to me, but not enough to say definitively. I have taken photos but the lighting conditions have changed a lot.

I measured my water temperature and it is down to 51F. Hopefully this just means waiting a little longer for results but I'll be honest, it's discouraging to see little change over night. I'm hopeful though because the no2 was very effective on this stain when applied directly in the test kit.

Please let me know if you have any suggestions.
 

TheBandit

Member
Dec 23, 2019
16
Ventura County CA
Update.
Here is a photo of my staining before treatment. The 3 white spots near the drain are areas where I tested Jacks Magic Copper Stuff using their stain ID kit (other combinations without the Copper Stuff did nothing to the stain)
20200118_125951_resize_74.jpg

Here are my supplies as described in my previous post.
20200118_092238_resize_71.jpg

Here are some photos of the progress after about 2 days of circulation.
inCollage_20200120_105728667_resize_53.jpg

inCollage_20200120_105745395_resize_79.jpg

inCollage_20200120_105757768_resize_82.jpg

The photos appear to show some progress, but it's very hard to tell in person. In retrospect, I wish I had applied the Copper Stuff more directly, perhaps down a pipe to get it closer to the worst of the stains. Then perhaps I'd see the rapid results I saw with the stain ID test kit.

For now I'm not doing any more than brushing the pool periodically. I'm not sure if I should do any chemical adjustments, add more sequestrant, or just let it keep circulating for I'm guessing a week or two. If anyone has advice please let me know.
 

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