Water Chemistry Help

chiefwej

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Jun 12, 2011
3,735
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In order to keep yourself legally protected it would be ideal to be on the HOA board. Then you will certainly be covered by their insurance. As a alternative you could be officially appointed to a ”pool committee” with authority delegated from the board to deal with the pool maintenance company.
 

JPMorgan

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May 22, 2018
400
Elmhurst, IL
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If the TA is correct, the pH will be correct.

If the pH is constantly low, the TA is too low.

A lot of the TA is cyanurate due to the excessive CYA, which is not good.

So, the actual TA (carbonate alkalinity is much lower than it seems).

If the CYA was 40, the TA at 60 would be much better.

I would try to get the CSI closer to -0.3.
With the addition of 100 oz of soda ash yesterday pH is now 7.4 and TA is 80. I was going to add another 45 oz of soda ash which should get me to about 7.6 pH and 85 TA and -.67 CSI.
Okay to go to 7.8 on pH (which would bump up TA some more) and get me to about -.44 CSI? I could then adjust CH from 180 to 250 to get to about -.3 CSI. These readings are all with water temp of 83, so CSI will drop as water temp goes down prior to closing. Thanks.
 
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JPMorgan

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May 22, 2018
400
Elmhurst, IL
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In order to keep yourself legally protected it would be ideal to be on the HOA board. Then you will certainly be covered by their insurance. As a alternative you could be officially appointed to a ”pool committee” with authority delegated from the board to deal with the pool maintenance company.
Thank you for the comments. I need to address the liability issue which I have not done yet and these are good suggestions. I need to consult with an attorney to see what's the best way to protect myself.... either of the options you suggested or "employee" status (which someone else suggested) earlier. They do pay an hourly rate for pool maintenance responsibilities... not a bad gig since I enjoy doing it. Thanks again.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,257
If the TA is 80, the pH is 7.4 and the CYA is 180, then the "Adjusted TA" is 80 - (180 x 0.30) = 26.

Normally, we do not care about adjusted TA, but if the CYA is out of range, the adjusted TA can become relevant.

The best solution is to get the CYA down to about 40.

At this point, I would probably add enough baking soda to raise the TA by about 20 ppm.

I would strongly push to get the CYA lower, if possible.

Cyanuric Acid correction factor based on pH.

pH........CF

7.0.......0.22

7.1.......0.24

7.2.......0.26

7.3.......0.28

7.4.......0.30

7.5.......0.32

7.6.......0.33

7.7.......0.34

7.8.......0.35

7.9.......0.36
 

chiefwej

LifeTime Supporter
TFP Guide
Jun 12, 2011
3,735
Tucson
Thank you for the comments. I need to address the liability issue which I have not done yet and these are good suggestions. I need to consult with an attorney to see what's the best way to protect myself.... either of the options you suggested or "employee" status (which someone else suggested) earlier. They do pay an hourly rate for pool maintenance responsibilities... not a bad gig since I enjoy doing it. Thanks again.
As an ”employee“ you have much more responsibility and liability than you would have as a volunteer appointed by the HOA board of directors. Just make sure your appointment is in the minutes of a HOA board meeting, and you should be covered.
 
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JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,257
As an ”employee“ you have much more responsibility and liability than you would have as a volunteer appointed by the HOA board of directors.
I disagree.

Under the concept of respondeat superior, the employer is usually responsible for the acts of the employee.

Employees are rarely responsible for negligence unless you can prove that they acted in bad faith, committed a criminal act or had some sort of professional responsibility that they breached as part of a professional license.

Show some cases where an employee was personally sued by the customer of a business.

https://www.ecmweb.com/around-the-c...ricians-charged-in-houston-pool-electrocution

Here is a case where electricians were sued but only because they were negligent under their duty under their professional license.

Doctors can be personally sued under their responsibility under their professional license.

However, most employees, like someone who works at a fast food place (Starbuck, McDonalds etc.) or any other business will virtually never be successfully sued unless you could show that their actions were intentional, like if they assaulted a customer.

If you are burned by scalding coffee due to a defective cup, you would probably not successfully sue the employee who prepared or served the coffee.

Even if it was the employees fault due to incompetence, the company would be responsible because they hired, trained and supervised the employee.
 
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JPMorgan

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May 22, 2018
400
Elmhurst, IL
Pool Size
20000
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Plaster
Chlorine
Liquid Chlorine
If the TA is 80, the pH is 7.4 and the CYA is 180, then the "Adjusted TA" is 80 - (180 x 0.30) = 26.

Normally, we do not care about adjusted TA, but if the CYA is out of range, the adjusted TA can become relevant.

The best solution is to get the CYA down to about 40.

At this point, I would probably add enough baking soda to raise the TA by about 20 ppm.

I would strongly push to get the CYA lower, if possible.

Cyanuric Acid correction factor based on pH.

pH........CF

7.0.......0.22

7.1.......0.24

7.2.......0.26

7.3.......0.28

7.4.......0.30

7.5.......0.32

7.6.......0.33

7.7.......0.34

7.8.......0.35

7.9.......0.36
I had never heard about "Adjusted TA", but, then again, I have never dealt with CYA of 180! That was the reading I got on 9/10 when I did the 1/2 tap water+ 1/2 pool water test. Doubtful it has changed much.... if anything it has risen. Let's say it's up to 200. The formula I would use for "Adjusted TA" is 80 - (200 x .30) = 20. If I can't get them to drain the pool right now to fix the CYA (highly doubtful), then the recommendation is to get the "Adjusted TA" close to the recommended minimum TA level of 50. Then re-test all levels and continue adjusting pH and CH, as needed. Is that correct? Thanks.
 

ajw22

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Jul 21, 2013
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I had never heard about "Adjusted TA", but, then again, I have never dealt with CYA of 180!

Be aware that there are lots of things with TFP Methods that are simplified. When all used together they work and there is no reason to try and teach the complexities. For example, TFP does not teach how to maintain a high CYA pool. TFP answer is drain the water and bring the CYA down. PoolMath does the TA adjustments while Pool Stores often talk about adjusted TA to their customers.

You are seeing where TFP methods are not always applicable to maintaining a commercial pool where the requirements may be different then TFP recommendations and methods.

I suggest you get your CPO certification where you will learn other methods. Then once you are really confused you can reconcile between CPO methods and TFP methods and determine what you will do at your condo pool.

We tell people that you should not try and mix and match recommendations between Pool Store methods and TFP methods for those reasons. And you should not try and do that until you get the proper education.
 
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ccbill

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Jul 23, 2021
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Be aware that there are lots of things with TFP Methods that are simplified. ..
I have deduced that from reading between the lines and have been searching for the details here at TFP but they don't seem readily available, other than maybe reading every post in The Deep End. Will a CPO course fill in the gaps?
 

ajw22

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I have deduced that from reading between the lines and have been searching for the details here at TFP but they don't seem readily available, other than maybe reading every post in The Deep End. Will a CPO course fill in the gaps?

This can give you an idea of differences between CPO training and TFP thinking...

 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,257
The CYA is beyond the legal limit and what TFP teaches.

So, the people maintaining the pool are not following any guidelines, CPO, TFP or anything else.

They are just doing a horrible job and just being lazy and incompetent.

The state code requires a drain and refill to lower the CYA to at least 50 ppm.

I don't get why no one can tell them to follow the legally required codes?

What am I missing?

Are they somehow exempt from the law?

Maybe they have diplomatic immunity and they can do whatever they want?
 
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ajw22

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I agree, a simple inquiry to whatever authority is supposed to do the inspections or enforce the regs couldn't hurt.

That can backfire on the Condo. You never know how bureaucrats will respond and who they will look to hold responsible.
 
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JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,257
I agree, a simple inquiry to whatever authority is supposed to do the inspections or enforce the regs couldn't hurt.
No need to call anyone.

The pool owner is the customer.

As the customer, tell the service company to do the job correctly, period.

It's called customer service.

Do the job correctly, is that too much to ask?

In my opinion, it's nonsense that the customer feels like they have to tolerate this level of performance from someone who is supposed to be a professional being paid to do the job correctly.
 

JPMorgan

Well-known member
May 22, 2018
400
Elmhurst, IL
Pool Size
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Plaster
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You are seeing where TFP methods are not always applicable to maintaining a commercial pool where the requirements may be different then TFP recommendations and methods.
If we have an understanding with the pool company that we are going to use liquid chlorine for a sanitizer, and maintain CYA at around 30-40, and FC at 4-5 is there any reason that we can't follow TFP methods to maintain this "commercial" pool? I understand things have gotten out of whack right now, but this was not on my watch and I hope to help them manage things quite differently next year after a fresh fill in the spring.
 

JPMorgan

Well-known member
May 22, 2018
400
Elmhurst, IL
Pool Size
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I will do water test and post full readings this evening to see where we are at. pH has come up substntially and I think we are now within TFP recommendations for CSI.
 

JPMorgan

Well-known member
May 22, 2018
400
Elmhurst, IL
Pool Size
20000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
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Readings this evening:
FC = 3
pH = 7.5
TA = 100
CH = 220
CYA = 160-180 (hard to get accurate reading using 1/2 tap water with 1/2 pool water for test). Let's call it 180
Temp = 83
CSI = -.46

I have not added baking soda yet to "increase TA by about 20", but it is rising as I add the soda ash. Pool closing in about a week. Suggestions for further adjustments before closing???
Keep adding soda ash to keep pH near 7.6??? Add baking soda to increase TA??? These items are on hand. No clacium chloride on hand at this time. Thanks.
 

ajw22

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Jul 21, 2013
29,119
Northern NJ
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pH of 7.5 is the same as 7.6

With a TA of 100 (or an adjusted TA of around 50) the pH will rise naturally.

I would not add anything for your pH or TA.

The CH is what needs to be raised now for the water to not leach calcium out of the plaster while it is closed.
 
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