VSP & Filter Advice For AGP with CircuPool SJ/RJ-20 SWG

[JoePoolOrMine]

Hello TFP members! Fun Joke to start this thread. What does a Mermaid say when she gets stuck in seaweed? Kelp! Kelp! (Courtesy of my 8 year old daughter).

I've spent the last few days reading just about non-stop on here and I am moments away from pulling the trigger on an AG Saltwater Aurora pool from The Pool Factory (TPF). I have a couple questions regarding the pump and despite multiple and many hours of research i'm still not finding a good answer since I'm confused between old/new tech, tech requiring automation vs not and AG or IG pump. As mentioned in my signature I'm looking to purchase a 11,500 - 15,000 gallon pool but most likely settling on the 21' 11,500 gallon due to space. I will only run this pool during the summer months (Mid/Late May - Sept/Oct) and there are typically only 3 people that will be using it though load will certainly fluctuate. I have everything figured out with the exception of the pump and filter combo. As you've all heard 100 times TPF bundles a AquaPro 190 SQ. FT. Cartridge Filter System 2-HP 2-Speed Pump with their pools for $649 which is not a bad price. I believe the canister is large enough to run without constant maintenance but i would change it to a Pentair CC 200 SQ. FT filter (or Pentair Clean & Clear Plus), though suggestions are welcome due to filter price. The IntelliFlo 011018 can out pump the filter but then again so can the AquaPro. I wanted to change the AquaPro system due to replacement filter costs. My only concern is energy use and ensuring the SWG receives the proper flow (>30 GPM I believe?) and the pool does not bloom. I've read about setting the pump speed/duration in pool school but it doesn't help that I cannot choose a pump. What are some suitable AG VS pumps with a good track record? I've been looking at the Pentair Intilliflo 011018 ($999 aquapool but coms over RS485 is old tech right?) and PowerFlo VS 330 but the pumps are vastly different GPMs. VS Pumps seem to shine at low flow where the energy use is 90% lower. Once I ramp up to mid/high speed the VSPs above consume significantly more energy, which i would rarely need i believe. My energy rate is 9.5c kw/h. Below are some rough numbers I ran based on each pump but I'm quickly approaching analysis paralysis. HELP! or rather KELP! KELP!

Pump

Voltage

Low Amps

Low Watt

Low $/Hr

4m Season 8/h

4m Season 24h

5m Season 8/h

5m Season 24h

4m Season 8/h6

4m Season 24h7

5m Season 8/h8

5m Season 24h9

AquaPro 2HP

120​

3.5​

420​

0.0399​

$38.30​

$114.91​

$47.88​

$143.64​

$114.91​

$344.74​

$143.64​

$430.92​

Pentair Intelliflo 011018

230​

0.5​

115​

$0.01​

$10.49​

$31.46​

$13.11​

$39.33​

$335.62​

$1,006.85​

$419.52​

$1,258.56​

Hayward MaxFlo VS

230​

0.4​

92​

0.00874​

$8.39​

$25.17​

$10.49​

$31.46​

$209.76​

$629.28​

$262.20​

$786.60​

TL;DR: I need advice for the following:
1) Cartridge Filter suggestion - I'm looking at the Pentair CC 220 Sq. FT filter. Opinions? Other reputable filters? Is 200 SQ FT too much? Just right?
2) Pump suggestion (VSP? SS? DS?) - AquaPro bundled with pool can out pump filter and is two speed (63/190 GPM) @ 2HP. VSP pumps such as the MaxFlow dont have the top end GPM. I do not have automation at this time and I do not have 1k in the budget to bring it aboard.

 

[kimkats]

You are one funny person!!! From the user name to the daughter joke! LOVE IT!

I have just the person to kelp you!!! @Jimrahbe you will have fun with this one!

 

[JoePoolOrMine]

Question 3 - Wire gauge from panel to pump? The run is about 25-30'. I'm thinking 12/2 or 12/3 depending on pump requirements. If i need to run that i'll likely run a 3/4" pvc conduit to allow for pulling two romex wires and possibly the pump comms wire back inside.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Joe,

You can never go too big when choosing a filter, or when buying a VS pump...

I think that either filter (190 or 220) will work just fine for you... Keep in mind that you should not need new cartridges for 5 to 10 years, so it is not like you will need a new cartridge each year..

Pump wise, I am a Pentair kind of guy.. I know nothing about the AquaPro, but I personally would choose Pentair over Hayward for about anything. The IntelliFlo VS 011018 is a great pump.. I have two of them at rent houses.. One have been running 24/7 for over 10 years and the other over 7 years. If one of them died today, I would have a new one on my porch tomorrow.

You do not need automation, but you will have to have a timer for the SWCG.. You never want the SWCG to get electrical power when the pump is off.. But.. since VS pumps gets constant electrical power, you will have to use the timer to tell the SWCG when to run..

Another option is to use the AquaPro, because it is a 2-speed pump, and you can connect it and the SWCG to the same timer.

Keep in mind the IntelliFlo will require 240 Volts AC.. While the AquaPro only required 120 Volts AC.

As I am typing, I am thinking that a 2-speed pump for your pool might be the better option. The VS pumps are awesome when you have all kinds of water features and a spa that all need different pumps speeds.. But you really don't have those requirements.. I would also look at going with a Pentair 2-speed pump.

I just saw your last post.. There are no pump coms... Without automation (which you do not need) all your pump controls will have to be at the pump. (I admit that I know nothing about AquaPro...)

I think you would be fine with 12 gauge wire, but I would pull 10 gauge and a Neutral wire just because you might want to add something later and it is cheaper to do it now. I don't think you are allowed to put romex inside a conduit.. Let's see what Allen has to say.. Calling @ajw22

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[ajw22]

You can't run ROMEX in conduit. Use THWN wire in conduit. It is always good to run the neutral wire even if you think you will only have 240V circuits. Then you have flexibility of adding a 120V circuit without any problems.

Where are your CBs going to be located? You need power for your pump and for the SWG connected to a timer.. This is why you end up with a load center with a timer or automation that is the electrical hub for your pool CBs. It also meets the requirement for the maintenance shutoff for your pump.

 

[JoePoolOrMine]

@Jimrahbe - Thank you so much for your detailed reply. One thing that has pushed me to the Pentair line is their reputation. I was hard pressed to find much about AquaPro and for similar money I can get a 2 speed pump and a BIG cartridge filter (Pentair or Sta-Rite seem to be the two i'm looking at). Any opinion on the Sta-Rite Posi-Clear RP or Systems 2 or 3 modular?

I'm glad to know that filters don't need replacing that often. I was thinking 1 -3 years, which was quickly recovered when the AquaPro filters are $170-190.

Do you have a timer you recommend? I've not looked into these at all and didnt even think about that with the SWG, i was overly excited about VSP fun and savings. I didnt think of the whole picture with shutting a 2 speed pump down and running it for the same duration as the VSP would be run to generate chlorine with the SWG and filter the pool. I'll hopefully have a robotic vac ASAP to assist as well.

Suggestions on 2 speed pumps by Pentair? I've been in VSP land so long I haven't even started. I'll take a look now.

One additional scenario has crept up. My GFs dad talked about building a solar water heating system. I've looked into this some and I saw a pentair system that will open valves and increase pump speeds, but that HAS to require a controller of some sort of additional controller. I'd venture a guess if this is even a debate for the future, the best bet is to get the proper, larger VSP, today. Buy once, suffer once right?

Regarding power - I misspoke and called the UF-B cable Romex. I'll be using only outdoor rated UF-B cable and the plan is to bury it inside of a PVC conduit. 240v or 120v will make no difference as I have to run the wire anyways. I'm looking at 10/2 or 10/3 currently (based on pump requirements), which isn't bad @ 1.50/ft. I have 6 spaces open in my current panel and no issue running a sub panel for the pool as power will exit the house right next to the main panel. I'm talking with the electrical inspector this week to see if i can pull single cables through and not a bundle like UF-B (a colleague just did this for his shed and got dual 30A feeds through a 1/2" conduit and it passed inspection without issue).

 

[Jimrahbe]

Joe,

If you plan to get solar or just "want" a VS pump, then I agree.. I always say "it is better to buy what you want, and then you only cry once, instead of buying cheap, and crying every time you use it."

My understanding is that Sta-Right makes good filters, but I have no real experience with them..

See what Allen says above about the wiring.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[ajw22]

I was just looking at the Pentair Solar Touch.

SolarTouch Solar Control System

The SolarTouch Solar Control System offers full digital control for the most precise, efficient, swimming pool heating possible. The digital thermostat is set with the touch of a button and will monitor the temperature of the pool water and solar collectors. SolarTouch Control System integrates...

www.pentair.com

On page 11 it lists specific pumps that are compatible and not compatible - https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...stem_Installation_and_Users_Guide_English.pdf

You need to plan out your future needs to have compatible equipment.

 

[JoePoolOrMine]

You can't run ROMEX in conduit. Use THWN wire in conduit. It is always good to run the neutral wire even if you think you will only have 240V circuits. Then you have flexibility of adding a 120V circuit without any problems.

This is where i'm realizing I need to talk with my electrician. I'm over here looking at UF-B 12/3 (made up of THWN wire) and not realizing when I said to "pull individual wires" i meant THWN wire. I'd gladly pull a neutral at the same time. Plus THWN wire is cheaper ($.30/ft) vs UF-B (1.50/ft)

Where are your CBs going to be located? You need power for your pump and for the SWG connected to a timer.. This is why you end up with a load center with a timer or automation that is the electrical hub for your pool CBs. It also meets the requirement for the maintenance shutoff for your pump.

Sorry I didnt address this until post #6. The main panel has extra breaker spots available and i'd be okay with running a small 6 breaker panel if needed since it'd be right next to the main panel. Do you have a recommendation on a load center or automation center? (I'm not sure automation is in the cards yet).

If you plan to get solar or just "want" a VS pump, then I agree.. I always say "it is better to buy what you want, and then you only cry once, instead of buying cheap, and crying every time you use it."

I like to buy it right the first time. The difference here is huge though so i'll need to have a serious discussion about the future solar plans which will dictate which direction we go.

I was just looking at the Pentair Solar Touch.
...
You need to plan out your future needs to have compatible equipment.

THANK YOU! I'll look at the documentation more

 

[ajw22]

Intermatic has a load center with a timer...

Amazon.com: Intermatic PE25300 60-Amps Panel WP1352ME, Color : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com: Intermatic PE25300 60-Amps Panel WP1352ME, Color : Patio, Lawn & Garden

www.amazon.com

Amazon.com: Intermatic T30404R Pool/Spa Control Panel 2xT104M, Color: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Intermatic T30404R Pool/Spa Control Panel 2xT104M, Color: Home Improvement

www.amazon.com

Run 60 amp service to the load center. Put a 20A 240V GFCI CB for the pump and a 15A 120V GFCI CB for the SWG connected through the timer. Then you can easily wire a solar controller or other stuff in.

 

[JoePoolOrMine]

Intermatic has a load center with a timer...

Amazon.com: Intermatic PE25300 60-Amps Panel WP1352ME, Color : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com: Intermatic PE25300 60-Amps Panel WP1352ME, Color : Patio, Lawn & Garden

www.amazon.com

Amazon.com: Intermatic T30404R Pool/Spa Control Panel 2xT104M, Color: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Intermatic T30404R Pool/Spa Control Panel 2xT104M, Color: Home Improvement

www.amazon.com

Run 60 amp service to the load center. Put a 20A 240V GFCI CB for the pump and a 15A 120V GFCI CB for the SWG connected through the timer. Then you can easily wire a solar controller or other stuff in.

A 60 amp service to the load center is just a double pole breaker running two hots to the new panel which isn't hard. Since it will be no further than 5' from the main panel i plan to run 10 gauge wire? I'll have my electrician do the final attaching i'll just get the wire close.

Also with the T30404R panel. Am i reading the schematic correctly and the top two breakers on the left are for the left clock and same for the right? The bottom two are not controlled by the timers at all correct?

@Jimrahbe - It looks like the solar option is much different than i expected and runs off a separate, much smaller pump. When looking at Pentair 2 speed pumps, do you have a suggestion? Using the load center above (digital or analogue) will i configure the pump to run for X duration at low speed and only kick it up to high when i have the additional need?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Joe,

Solar uses the same main pool pump...

I would use the 2-speed pump if I was not going to use solar.. I would use a VS pump if I planed on using solar.. I say that because then you could adjust the flow speed going to the solar to be just what you need. You would need a solar controller, like the SolarTouch (About $250) that would turn the solar valve on and off based upon the pool water temp and the solar water temp. The SolarTouch can then adjust the speed of the IntelliFlo pump to whatever speed you decide is best for solar operation.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[ajw22]

Also with the T30404R panel. Am i reading the schematic correctly and the top two breakers on the left are for the left clock and same for the right? The bottom two are not controlled by the timers at all correct?

No, you can wire up the breakers anyway you want.

Each timer can switch one 240V load or two 120V loads.

If you go for a 2 speed pump then you need another timer to control the speeds.

A VS pump is always powered and does not run through a timer.

A single speed pump would run through one of the timers in the T30404R panel.

 

[JoePoolOrMine]

No, you can wire up the breakers anyway you want.

Each timer can switch one 240V load or two 120V loads.

If you go for a 2 speed pump then you need another timer to control the speeds.

A VS pump is always powered and does not run through a timer.

A single speed pump would run through one of the timers in the T30404R panel.

Is there anyway to trigger the high speed manually only when desired? Say i want to run the low speed for 6 hours a day and high only when desired like during or after a heavier load.

It looks like i'll be going with the two speed pump. The solar idea is not as traditional as most systems and uses a small separate standalone pump.
I'm currently looking at the Pentair WhisperFlo WFDS-4. Does this sound about right? I believe i'll need a 2.5" suction and 2" return?

 

[ajw22]

For a 2 speed pump you want...

Intermatic T40604Rt3 Timer Control System W/T106M & T104M, 300W Transformer & Load Center: Electrical Timers: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement

Intermatic T40604Rt3 Timer Control System W/T106M & T104M, 300W Transformer & Load Center: Electrical Timers: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.com

It has a T104 timer to turn the pump on and off and a T106 timer where you can select the times for the speeds.

Then you need to put a separate T101 timer box next to it for the SWG.

 

[JoePoolOrMine]

For a 2 speed pump you want...

Intermatic T40604Rt3 Timer Control System W/T106M & T104M, 300W Transformer & Load Center: Electrical Timers: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement

Intermatic T40604Rt3 Timer Control System W/T106M & T104M, 300W Transformer & Load Center: Electrical Timers: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.com

It has a T104 timer to turn the pump on and off and a T106 timer where you can select the times for the speeds.

Then you need to put a separate T101 timer box next to it for the SWG.

It is either late or i'm just not getting it and i apologize.

It seems i could set times for the pump to run on A and times within A to run the pump on high using timer B. Is that right? Couldnt the SWG get wired to the same timer as the pump on timer A? Or is it the wattage that's too great? I appreciate your help and i trust what you say, i just am trying to understand.

Can you explain what the different timers (T101/T104/T106) are? I'm looking (quickly) but not seeing much difference and i'm not sure it matters enough to focus on tonight. And if it doesnt, feel free to skip this.

EDIT: I read the Intermatic Site and i trust and believe. Onwards! How you know the difference in panels is baffling to me but i thank you.

Regarding Pumps - Thoughts? @Jimrahbe

I'm looking at the WhisperFlo WFDS-4 still. Should i be looking at the WFDS-6? Will i have a problem with an RJ-20 on these? Or do i need to go bigger due to short durations? Less runtime = longer life?

I found an affordable pentair VSP - StaRite SuperMax VS Variable Speed Pump 343001 - This is $500 cheaper than the intelliflo VSP. VSP = longer run, lower amps, savings? I cant find a power draw but i'm really liking this pump. Let me guess - I need a different load panel? Suggestions?
Finally i found another thread while looking into the supermax where you recommended to look at INYO and i see Waterway has many suitable upmps such as the Waterway Power Defender 140 and now i'm really lost.

Filters:
Sta-Rite System 2
Sta-Rite System 3
Stay-Rite Posi-Clear

SWG:
CircuPool RJ-20
CircuPool Edge-25

 

[ajw22]

On further though you don't need the T101. With the T40604T3 you connect the pump and SWG to the T104 timer and the T106 timer will set the pump speeds.

Intermatic also has an electronic timer that is more expensive rather then the mechanical timers.

The 1 HP WFDS-4 will be fine. You will have a simple pool without a heater or spa or water features.

Note that In the United States, variable speed (VS) motors will be required for all pumps over 1.1 total HP as of July 18, 2021. I don't see the dual speed WhisperFlo on Pentair's website. SS and DS pumps are being phased out by the manufacturers. In a few years you may have a problem replacing motors in SS and DS pumps.

The StaRite SuperMax VS is a fine pump. I would not hesitate to get it. IT does not connect to Pentair Automation that the IntelliFlo pumps do. As a stand alone pump it is fine.

With a VS pump you are back to needing a maintenance disconnect for the pump and a T101 or T104 timer for the SWG.

Pumps are a commodity. They all basically work the same way. There are differences in quality and warranty between manufacturers. I have no experience with Waterway pumps. You can get lost in the many Chinese imported pumps with various names on them if you go down that rabbit hole.

You don't need a fancy filter system. A basic 200-300 sq ft cartridge filter system will be fine. You will likely clean it once a year on closing.

I think the RJ20 may be too small for your pool. I would get at least the RJ-30. The RJ has more precise % generation increments of 5% then the Edge which adjusts in 25% increments. If you get the VS pump you want the RJ that lets you adjust in 5%. With the Edge you have to adjust pump or SWG runtime to fine tune the FC output.

 

[JoePoolOrMine]

@ajw22 - Thank you for all of your advice. You've helped me a ton. I put in the order tonight for the pool and will work out the final details with the filter tomorrow (today). I want to be sure i have the pump/load center pairing straight and I'd appreciate your double checking. I should also note that I have a return LED light for the pool i'll need to power but it has a remote so a single CB, always powered, will be fine. Here is how i understand the load centers, though as i type this i'm realizing i do not get the maintenance disconnect portion (see below):

VSP:
Sta Rite SuperMax VSP MDL 343001 requires Intermatic PE25300 or Intermatic T30404R? Would i need an additional T101 for my SWG? If a VSP is always powered and the speed/program is controlled at the pump, where is the maintenance disconnect? (A circuit breaker?) Could i use a T30404R to control the SWG and another load while providing power to the pump? Sorry for the questions, I'm slowly piecing the load center together.

2 Speed WFDS-4 requires Intermatic T40604Rt3 W/T106M & T104M. No additional timer needed for SWG. Panel can be configured to run pump on low during X time and high pump on demand (manual lever) or at a set time?

I'm looking into the RJ-30 or RJ-45 now due to the cost being extremely close.

Filter will be chosen on cost and availability tomorrow.
Stay Rite System 2
Stay Rite Posi-Clear

The goal for me is much the goal of TFP. I would like to run my filter for as little as possible but receive the optimal clarity and usability. I am so close.

 

[ajw22]

@ajw22 - Thank you for all of your advice. You've helped me a ton. I put in the order tonight for the pool and will work out the final details with the filter tomorrow (today). I want to be sure i have the pump/load center pairing straight and I'd appreciate your double checking. I should also note that I have a return LED light for the pool i'll need to power but it has a remote so a single CB, always powered, will be fine. Here is how i understand the load centers, though as i type this i'm realizing i do not get the maintenance disconnect portion (see below):

VSP:
Sta Rite SuperMax VSP MDL 343001 requires Intermatic PE25300 or Intermatic T30404R? Would i need an additional T101 for my SWG? If a VSP is always powered and the speed/program is controlled at the pump, where is the maintenance disconnect? (A circuit breaker?) Could i use a T30404R to control the SWG and another load while providing power to the pump? Sorry for the questions, I'm slowly piecing the load center together.

The VSP gets continuous power from a 240V GFCI CB and uses its internal timer.
The SWG needs a timer and power from a 240V or 120V GFCI CB.
The LED light has its own switch and power from a 120V GFCI CB.

So you need 2 or 3 GFCI CBs and one timer.

If you get the continuous power for the VSP from a CB that is not within sight of the pump then you need a maintenance disconnect.

So you can piecemeal the electical or you can put in a Load Center with a timer and CBs and meet all the requirements.

2 Speed WFDS-4 requires Intermatic T40604Rt3 W/T106M & T104M. No additional timer needed for SWG. Panel can be configured to run pump on low during X time and high pump on demand (manual lever) or at a set time?

With the 2 Speed WFDS-4 you need two timers. The T104 that will turn the pump and SWG on and off and the T106 that will schedule the speeds.
You will need a 240V GFCI CB for the pump and SWG and another 120V GFCI CB for the light.

I'm looking into the RJ-30 or RJ-45 now due to the cost being extremely close.

Either will work but the bigger the better for SWGs. I would get the RJ45.

Filter will be chosen on cost and availability tomorrow.
Stay Rite System 2
Stay Rite Posi-Clear

The goal for me is much the goal of TFP. I would like to run my filter for as little as possible but receive the optimal clarity and usability. I am so close.

Either filter will work.

 

[JoePoolOrMine]

The VSP gets continuous power from a 240V GFCI CB and uses its internal timer.
The SWG needs a timer and power from a 240V or 120V GFCI CB.
The LED light has its own switch and power from a 120V GFCI CB.

So you need 2 or 3 GFCI CBs and one timer.

If you get the continuous power for the VSP from a CB that is not within sight of the pump then you need a maintenance disconnect.

So you can piecemeal the electical or you can put in a Load Center with a timer and CBs and meet all the requirements.

With the 2 Speed WFDS-4 you need two timers. The T104 that will turn the pump and SWG on and off and the T106 that will schedule the speeds.
You will need a 240V GFCI CB for the pump and SWG and another 120V GFCI CB for the light.

Either will work but the bigger the better for SWGs. I would get the RJ45.

Either filter will work.

@ajw22 I owe you a beer or 10 for that. My word that was comprehensive and AMAZING! THANK YOU! If you ever find your self in the southern RI/CT area, let me know.

I'm going to pick a pump tonight but i think the WFDS-4 is the best price/performance choice for me right now. I'll pair that with the T40604Rt3 W/T106M & T104M panel and as you mentioned a 240v GFCI CB and SWG and another 120V GFCI CB for the light. Do you recommend the pentair 6milliamp CB? Or is there another brand? I also am going to spring for the RJ45. No reason to half bake the SWG and overload it. I want maintenance free and this is part of the equation.

Regarding the 104/106 combo. Can i leave the 106 deactivated or unset until i need or want it? I'm too inexperienced to know if i'll need high daily or if low for X number of hours will suffice. I'll spend time in the 'pool school' section tonight. How would you initially start with the times? I'd rather take an educated guess vs a complete guess.

I've scheduled my pool installer, trencher for the conduit and electrician to certify everything. I need to do the permits next week and get stuff rolling. I'm sure i'll have a last minute question but we are on the way!