Utterly clueless, need some thoughts, please

[Emc.Carter]

My husband and I did not grow up with a backyard swimming pool, but several of our good friends have and encourage that if we have the means we should take advantage of our yard and install a pool. However, this feels like a daunting undertaking because we ourselves are not familiar with all that is involved with installing and maintaining a pool. After looking at various pools we have decided on a 20’x50’ pool with an automatic cover.

While one PB did not mention any concerns using an automatic pool cover with a SWG, the other company did not advise that they felt it was highly corrosive to the tracks, electric heat pump, so on and so forth. The 2nd PB felt that if we wanted a SWG we should then elect to install a fence and winter safety cover instead. Our city ordinance does not require a fence around a pool but we would either choose a fence or an automatic pool cover as we have a 6, 4, and 1yr old.

We have decided to go with the 2nd PB because they are able to work us in with our neighbors pool installation across the street within the next month or so whereas the other PB is booking out for next May which means we likely would not be able to swim next summer. Both companies are reputable and the 2nd PB has done several installations nearby.

On my own, I read about the FROG system, and I thought it was the best of both worlds, but this forum has me second guessing that selection. The PB said he has used that system himself at his own home for the past 7 years and likes it. He mentioned that automatic pool covers are not without their issues however with the number of trees surround the pool area and young children he thought the automatic cover would be a good thought. He did not push us towards an automatic cover by any means, but those friends who have them really like it.

Please help with your thoughts - I would be super appreciative. Thanks!

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum!
Please do not use the Frog thing. It adds copper to your water. That will eventually stain your pool and turn blonde hair green. It does not reduce the amount of chlorine needed in the pool, and that will be trichlor, which you will need to manage our your stabilizer level will get unmanageable requiring you to drain your pool.

There is no reason not to use a SWCG with an autocover. One of our Moderators, @YippeeSkippy has just that. No issues. You still need to manage your water chemistry and test your pool water with your own kit, even with a SWCG.

I suggest you read ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

I have a SWG and an auto-cover for 8+ years now. No problems whatsoever and looking at the tracks and mechanics show nothing unusual.
That said- we don't close our pool in the winter so our pool and cover is in use year round. I once read something about needing a winter cover instead of the autocover to bear the weight of snow. Yet others in colder climates do use them without problems year round.... I just don't know about *that snow stuff* so am not sure??? You'd have to ask the cover company.

Ditto Marty's sentiments on the evil copper containing *expensive* Frog thingie! A SWG is *the* way to go!!

Maddie

 

[lazygirl1978]

I have an electric heat pump, an autocover, and a SWCG, and my PB never said a word about it! I do think she mentioned they'd install some sacrificial anodes, and they did. I don't think I could have a pool without these things... the heat feels good, but I feel a lot better using it with the autocover! (I like my pool warm.) And the SWCG is like magic (I manually chlorinated for a couple months before I got it, so I appreciate it even more!). The cover also keeps my pH from climbing, which is terrific. There are plenty of others here with SWCG and autocovers who I'm sure will chime in!

 

[Divin Dave]

Hi emc.
Welcome to TFP. I agree with the others about a SWG system. The key to it though is proper chemical balance of the pool.

I am going to stray way from that topic though and throw out some thoughts... not trying to talk you out of anything, but these are the types of things that either make or break our enjoyment of our swimming pools and how well they work.

1. a 20 x 50 foot pool is a massive swimming pool. At an average of 5.5 deep, it will hold 41,100 gallons of water. (assuming 3.5 in the shallow and 8 in the deep)

Because of the length, you will need at least 2 skimmers to keep the pool skimmed.
I would imagine also, that you will need 8 returns in the circulation system.
I would not recommend more than 2 returns on each "line" because of the length of the pipe will need to be from the pool to the pump, and the ability of a pump to pump water that far and still maintain any reasonable energy efficiency.

You are going to need a large pump to circulate that much water while using 2 skimmers. I would recommend a 3 HP Variable Speed Pump.
If you go with Saltwater, you will need to get a system rated for 1.5 the gallons of your pool. So you will need one rated for 60K gallons.

Lets talk about maintenance after it's built.
Because of the length, most robotic pool cleaners will not have a cord long enough. They generally top out right at 50 ft long. If you intend to use a robot, which I do recommend, you;ll need to install an electrical outlet mid way down the long side of the pool so that a robot cleaner cord will be long enough to get at the whole pool.

Pool Chemicals - the more water you have, the more chemicals you have to add to it in order to maintain the proper balance.

Water Evaporation - water evaporates and you will have to top off that water. During the hotter months, you'll need to replace at least 1 inch of water a week. WIth a pool that big, 1 inch of evaporated water is about 700 gallons a week, and I would consider 1 inch evaporation very conservative. It could easily be twice that.

My point is, be careful of the pig picture and consider the time and cost of not only the build, but maintaining it for as long as you own your home. A pool is a wonderful thing to have until the time and cost to maintain it exceeds the desire to do so.

 

[Emc.Carter]

Thank you all so much for your input it is amazing to find such a community that is vested in helping one another out. I feel quite fortunate to have chanced upon the forum before we got too far into things.

We received two bids and one company seemed to quote everything explicitly (they do over 100 pools a year in the area) and the other company is family owned and operated.

As mentioned before, the PB we placed a deposit with yesterday is able to work us in with the house across the street - so this was the major motivating factor because that means we would actually get to swim next year. But it has crunched us a bit as I thought I had until next May to research everything.

If y’all would be so kind as to look at the bid below and provide your thoughts I would totally be indebted. The first image is what was proposed and the second image is the upgrades that I requested at the same price point to which they did oblige - I think because it was additional considering they are across the street and can do both at the same time.

To be forthcoming, I was the one that asked about the Frog after research bc recommended I either do the SWG and winter safety cover or the Traditional chlorine pool and automatic cover. He said the price point was the same either way and it did not matter which way we went.

We were thinking about the 50 length mainly as it would allow for better “laps” in the pool.

But I absolutely hear y’all on size. I sketched it out with spray paint and we can accommodate but going 40 isn’t horrible. Depth would be 3’6” to 6’6”

Appreciate y’all so much!

 

[Emc.Carter]

If we switch routes and request the SWG - do y’all have a recommendation as to a specific kind?

Also I did askabout the snowfall - and was told that the way you close the pool is different between a winter safety cover and automatic cover and that they would allow for the more water to support the auto cover and that we don’t typically get enough snowfall for it to be an issue...

Thank y’all for your thoughts.

 

[bmoreswim]

Ok, here's the next topic. Automation. If you get it, your SWG, pump and automation will all need to be Pentair. If you don't get automation, you can get another brand of SWG. But there is also no need not to get the Pentair IC-60 with your equipment. You don't need automation, but it does make some things more convenient. You don't have a spa and that is a common reason to get automation. I don't have a spa, have a setup practically the same as you, and enjoy having automation. Ours controls pump, SWG, pool lights and deck lights. Pentair has a very good automation system if you are inclined to spend maybe $2K for it.

I also have an autocover, and fence and winter cover. If you read through by build thread, in my signature, there is discussion about using an autocover as a winter cover. Our installer said his customers are about 50/50 for whether they do or not. I prefer to have a winter cover. I would also never have just an autocover with kids. There are many times that I don't want to cover my pool, but would still want it off limits. If you leave the water higher in winter (for an autocover), it has the potential to get up to the tiles if/when the pool freezes and cause problems. There's no right way, but I also would not like to have the cover accumulate snow/water as it melts. Our cover pump works pretty good, but occasionally doesn't. I just like the dense mesh covers. It's a very subjective decision with some objective aspects.

 

[Divin Dave]

emc,
regarding SWG Brands, for that large of a pool, you'll want a 60K gallon system . The choices are limited for a system that large. Most only go up to 40K gallons. The Pentair IC60 is a 60K system. There might be another company, but the name of them escapes me.... Im sure someone else will chime in on 60K SWG systems.

EDIT - I just looked your PBs equipment list. your 20x40x 4.5 pool will hold right at 3000 gallons,
So and Pentair IC 40 be OK, but Just barely. There are many more systems rated for 40K than there are 60.

 

[bmoreswim]

I think it's the CircuPool RJ-60 for the other popular 60K choice, as an option if not using automation

 

[YippeeSkippy]

I would dump the booster pump and that cleaner and just go for the robot. Save a ton of electricity as well as perform much better. Saves potential plumbing issues too. All you need is an outlet in the right spot.

Maddie

 

[Emc.Carter]

Thank you thank you everyone!

A winter cover after we close for the season is a great idea, and definitely a consideration moving forward.

Is there an article on TFP that discusses automation in more detail? I’m not sure I understand exactly what automation replaces? This was a line item listed with the other PB that was not discussed with the PB that we have submitted a deposit. Likely bc we basically said we don’t want anything really fancy - but easier maintenance and understanding for a newbie is worthwhile.

I was reading on various threads about a robot. Could you provide more information about which one or point me in the direction of where to learn more?

I feel like I’ve lost a little ground in that I will be making some changes to the proposal after already submitting my deposit. With the removal of the proposed system and requesting a Pentair electric heater with Pentair IC60 SWG and automation - how much would you expect the bid to go up?

Also do y’all feel that 1 Hester should be sufficient since it will be covered when not in use?

A million thanks for helping me avoid unknown mistakes and aggravation after the fact. We truly appreciate your time and input!!!

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Check out the Maytronics website for the residential robots- the videos are great for explaining them. I have an Active 20, and any of the Dolphins are respected a lot here.

Maytronics Blog for Pool Owners - All About Your Private Pool

Maytronics the manufacturer of Dolphin the world's leading robotic pool cleaner since 1983 share their vast experience for private pool owners around the world

maytronicsus.com

Automation is nothing more than saving you the trip out to the equipment pad to make changes to your pump, your SWG and turn on/off lights. That sort of thing. Some use pool specific ipads and others just an App on your phone. I'm low tech (lower budget!) and have no problems without automation. But if you want specialty items now is the time to put it in.

Maddie

 

[sktn77a]

Integrating the pressure side cleaner with a VS pump is a little more complicated unless you have a fully compatible automation system. If you plan to turn the cleaner booster pump on and off manually........... don't! You'll almost certainly forget to turn it off and then you'll have it running without the main pump. Get a compatible automation system or go with a robot.

 

[Chickinvic]

Thank you all so much for your input it is amazing to find such a community that is vested in helping one another out. I feel quite fortunate to have chanced upon the forum before we got too far into things.

We received two bids and one company seemed to quote everything explicitly (they do over 100 pools a year in the area) and the other company is family owned and operated.

As mentioned before, the PB we placed a deposit with yesterday is able to work us in with the house across the street - so this was the major motivating factor because that means we would actually get to swim next year. But it has crunched us a bit as I thought I had until next May to research everything.

If y’all would be so kind as to look at the bid below and provide your thoughts I would totally be indebted. The first image is what was proposed and the second image is the upgrades that I requested at the same price point to which they did oblige - I think because it was additional considering they are across the street and can do both at the same time.

To be forthcoming, I was the one that asked about the Frog after research bc recommended I either do the SWG and winter safety cover or the Traditional chlorine pool and automatic cover. He said the price point was the same either way and it did not matter which way we went.

We were thinking about the 50 length mainly as it would allow for better “laps” in the pool.

But I absolutely hear y’all on size. I sketched it out with spray paint and we can accommodate but going 40 isn’t horrible. Depth would be 3’6” to 6’6”

Appreciate y’all so much!

Do yourself a favour and make the shallow end 4' if you want to swim laps. 3'6" is really only 3' of water and you'll find it too shallow.

I swim a mile almost every day in our pool (20 x 40'), and thank God the shallow end is 4'.

If you look on some of the other pool build threads there is lots of conversation on the matter. Anyone who wants their pool to be functional for laps will tell you the same thing.

 

[Emc.Carter]

Integrating the pressure side cleaner with a VS pump is a little more complicated unless you have a fully compatible automation system. If you plan to turn the cleaner booster pump on and off manually........... don't! You'll almost certainly forget to turn it off and then you'll have it running without the main pump. Get a compatible automation system or go with a robot.

So to clarify, since all these terms are so new to us! I could select a robot in lieu of the Polaris 380 with booster pump? Or if I choose the automation route, make sure everything is Pentair?

If I do the robot - is there anything specific I need to revise in the proposal?

So much to think about - but glad to do it on the front end. Thanks y'all!

 

[bmoreswim]

Do yourself a favour and make the shallow end 4' if you want to swim laps. 3'6" is really only 3' of water and you'll find it too shallow.

I swim a mile almost every day in our pool (20 x 40'), and thank God the shallow end is 4'.

If you look on some of the other pool build threads there is lots of conversation on the matter. Anyone who wants their pool to be functional for laps will tell you the same thing.

Please keep all pool depths listed as water depth. It is too confusing to do otherwise. Thank you.

 

[bmoreswim]

So to clarify, since all these terms are so new to us! I could select a robot in lieu of the Polaris 380 with booster pump? Or if I choose the automation route, make sure everything is Pentair?

If I do the robot - is there anything specific I need to revise in the proposal?

So much to think about - but glad to do it on the front end. Thanks y'all!

Yes, your choices for automated cleaning are:

Suction cleaner (debris goes to your pool filter - old style of cleaner)
Pressure side cleaner (some with a booster pump) (debris generally goes into a bag - old style of cleaner)
Robot (plugs into electric). New style of cleaner.

Save yourself the effort and get a robot. As mentioned above, Dolphin’s are solid choices. I too have an Active 20. See this thread if you have a few days to read it. Doheny's Discovery, S200, Active20, Triton owners club. Surprisingly it has slipped to the second page of the Cleaners section.Just tell the PB to remove the cleaner and booster. Then buy a robot yourself. They just plug in. But important as mentioned earlier, for your large size pool, put an outlet near the middle of the long side of your pool.

And all is correct in your first sentence. EXCEPT that heaters don’t matter for brand. Raypak is a popular gas choice. Not sure on heat pumps.

 

[Divin Dave]

Hi again emc.
you probably need to talk to your PB on chanigng the cleaner if you decide to.

A robot plugs into an electric outlet and it is very cheap to run it. You need to research some on robots. There are lots of bells and whistle options available on robots. Remote controlled, controlled from apps, teh climb the walls and scrub the water line, - or not. Lots of options which is why you need to look into them before making a decision on exactly which one might suit you.

A plus with this robot, is that nothing has to be "Built In" to the pool to work it. You just plug it into an electrical outlet and its ready to go.

The Polaris is whats referred to as a Pressure Side Cleaner. It actually takes another pump to run it. Its old technology and the pump is very inefficient on electrical usage. And even worse, the pump is very noisy. This cleaner has a long hose the plugs into a water port in tside of the pool and that hose can spring leaks and ... well, blah blah blah. It can get to be a real pain to keep them running right.

The other types of cleaner is known as Suction Side cleaners. These cleaners also have a long hose that plugs into a port in the wall but uses the main pool pump to run it. Number 1, all suction side cleaners are Ugly. and even worse, they dont work very well.

 

[Emc.Carter]

Thanks y’all! I am trying to read through as many articles and links that y’all have listed. It is so nice to have this forum to reference bc reading through other sites can only get you so far as much of the information is provided by manufacturers of whatever device or the pool company that may have a slant a particular way.

So I will definitely be removing the pressure side cleaner and booster pump, request that the schematics plan for an outlet midway of the long side and then purchase a robot on my own. I assume this effects the bid by only the removal of the cost of those items?

Another question - it was recommended that we go with a heat pump bc it would add a considerable expense to run the gas over to the pool bc it’s on the opposite end of the house lengthwise. Both PB felt an electric heat pump would be sufficient since we are not adding a spa. One PB thought it might be worth considering a second heat pump when increasing from 20x40 to 20x50?