Using Intellicenter Valve Output to Control Stenner Pump

[alferz]

After noticing that I have two extra valve outputs, but no extra relays, I thought maybe I could use a valve output to control my Stenner pump. That way I could schedule my dosing cycle along with a set filter pump speed as a feature circuit and set the dose time accurately in one place instead of needing to use an extra timer.

The Stenner Econ FP seems like it could fit the bill nicely. It can activate based on a dry contact OR a 12-24 vac or vdc signal. Does anyone know what the Intellicenter's 3 pin valve actuator connector actually outputs when a valve is active vs inactive? I know my Intellivalve's are always getting power, so I assume two of the wires are 12 or 24 vdc and a ground. Maybe the 3rd wire gets 12v or 24v applied when the valve is supposed to be "on" or activated out of home position. I can test this with a multimeter but need to track down the right spare connector to avoid shorting anything (dont want to cut into my nice new Intellivalves) - I figured I would ask if anyone knows how these valve ports actually work at the basic electrical level.

 

[ajw22]

Valve actuators run on 24 V AC.

Black wire is common and either red or white wires gets 24V AC to it to turn valve one way or the other.

Valve Actuators - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

This is the wiring for a standard valve...

 

[guinness]

In addition to Allen's reply, power is constantly applied to either the red or white wire. The micro switch will interrupt the power to the motor.

 

[alferz]

Great information, thank you both. I'm thinking this will work perfectly with the Econ FP's auxiliary mode which activates on a continuous basis with a 24vac signal. If I get this working I will post a writeup.

 

[generessler]

I've thought of doing exactly the same thing with my iAquaLink Rs. But I'm nervous. I want a failsafe for two cases: forgetting to turn it off if I manually turn it on and schedule config errors, which I've made while setting up my VSP.

What we really need is some kind of one-shot switch in the circuit that never allows the pump to run more than a maximum amount of time.

You didn't mention whether you want the pump for chlorine or muriatic acid, but both could be bad if the whole tank were emptied into the pool.

I think this fills the bill. It would limit pump on time to 100 minutes: https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/relays_-z-_timers/timer_relays/t2s-sst-33-240a

 

[alferz]

I'm using for liquid chlorine, and I agree 4 gallons of 12.5% chlorine would be a bad day! That would only happen once for me to scrap the whole setup. At least on the Intellicenter, the valve actuator is supposed to be linked to and run only with a circuit - an actual aux circuit or a feature circuit. So at least in theory, barring any bugs in the Pentair firmware (which would not surprise me a bit) it seems safe enough to only assign the valve to one feature circuit with a defined schedule and trust that at all other times, that valve actuator would be off. The alternative is an Econ-T but I could also see issues with that setup - for instance forgetting to disable the automatic timer operation on a day when the pump is off for filter cleaning etc and saturate a small section of PVC with high chlorine content. Definitely tradeoffs with both approaches.

 

[ajw22]

it seems safe enough to only assign the valve to one feature circuit with a defined schedule and trust that at all other times, that valve actuator would be off.

I would not trust the Intellicenter to be flawless. I would build a timer into the circuit so that the Stenner is stopped after a set runtime.

 

[rstrouse]

We did just add a chem doser function to njsPC that will do all the safety checks to ensure it does not dump the tank into the pool. This includes maximums related to the dosage over time, manual dosing, mixing delays of other chem adjustments, freeze protection and the ability to add a flow switch. This will integrate with your IntelliCenter.

 

[alferz]

I would not trust the Intellicenter to be flawless. I would build a timer into the circuit so that the Stenner is stopped after a set runtime.

That is a bummer. I think the Econ-T might be the safer bet then. Its pretty concerning that we cant trust an industrial control system like the Intellicenter. I could see a similarly bad situation where switching from spa mode to pool mode leaves the intake valve set to spa, draining the spa and running the pump dry for a period of time. Accurate control of valves and relays is the most basic/crucial function of these automation systems and especially with their high price tags, failures/bugs are just not acceptable.

 

[rstrouse]

Your failure modes are actually less about IntelliCenter failing and more about simple mistakes. Imagine the schedule on the doser pump not being turned off when the controller is not in Pool mode. Simple enough just shut off the pool from your phone. While in this mode it is filling up the pipe with chlorine. So the pool has been off and the dosing pump has been running because a simple timer does not keep this from happening unless you wire it through the filter relay. Since the pump also has no notion of which mode the pool is operating in, simply switching to the smaller body chlorinates the spa at the same rate as the much larger pool. This is because the filter relay is tied to both the pool and the spa.

I suppose if you did wire it to a valve relay then you could pull this off but you will be very close to 3A if you run the pump and cycle the intake/return valves. These pumps are fused at 2A and each IntelliValve draws ~750mA.

If you did hook the 24vac series pumps to a valve relay output, you could then set the valve settings to pool. Unfortunately, these settings are 1 to 1 so it would run always when the pool mode is selected. I suppose you could then gang that through an aux relay that is triggered by a schedule. In that case the pool would need to be on and the aux circuit would need to be on as well for the chem pump to run. So pool + chem pump = running chem pump.

As a general rule IntelliCenter doesn't miss a schedule but manual priorities will throw this a bit. The schedules are designed for things like filtration, water features, and lighting. Overriding a schedule with a manual toggle on something like that isn't that big of a deal but it can be confusing. You just have to be aware that the functional bits are designed for another purpose.

The other thing is that you should choose carefully regarding the Econ model. Some of them have such low flow rates and others have high flow rates. Too low of a flow rate and the dosing period will be long and too high of a flow rate will not give you the granularity you might want for 1 minute intervals. At 3.4gpd or even with the larger 5.0gpd a manual dose will be just like throwing a hose into the pool to fill it up and having to remember to go shut it off. Imagine testing the water to determine you need 20oz of chlorine. Hit the manual button on the pump but remember to come back in about 55 minutes.

Honestly buying the Pentair Chlorine tank with the Stenner pump attached is a better bargain. It gives about 100-120mL/min dosing rates, has some great features for refilling it, and will cost you about the same as a standalone pump. I use one for Acid dosing and couldn't be happier with the performance of it. I might get a chlorine tank (even though I have IntelliChlor) just to play with the dosing functionality.

Finally, I can't imagine the LCD display on the Econ-T/FP timer being a joy to program on the pad as it is mounted to the side of the pump. Being in NorCal, the demand changes quite a bit over the season. Plan on fiddling your schedules in the bright summer sun. That little display looks like a real joy with 24 button pushes to get through the schedules while the song "I'm a Little Teapot" runs through your head. You would need to contort down and sideways to read it while it is mounted to the tank.

All of this can be avoided and there is a better way.

 

[ajw22]

.

we cant trust an industrial control system like the Intellicenter.

I would not view the IntelliCenter as an INDUSTRIAL control system. It is a residential consumer product.

An industrial product would have many more sensors and feedbacks that what you command actually occurs. Is the pump actually running and flowing water? Is the heater actually putting out heated water? Are the lights pulling amperage showing they are actually on? The IntelliCenter lacks these and many other control checks.

 

[Flying Tivo]

Imagine the schedule on the doser pump not being turned off when the controller is not in Pool mode

i power my stenner off a relay that feeds from the SWG transformer from the pump relay, so that way it can not feed if the pump is off. Just another fail safe, but it can always fail in someway you never thought about.

 

[guinness]

I think this fills the bill. It would limit pump on time to 100 minutes: https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/relays_-z-_timers/timer_relays/t2s-sst-33-240a

I think the ProSense on-interval relay timer appears to be a better fit, 0.1 to 10 minutes timing range, 24-240 VAC operating voltage.

Upon application of input voltage, the output is energized and the time delay (t) begins. At the end of the time delay (t), the output is de-energized. Input voltage must be removed to reset the time delay relay.

 

[generessler]

> I think the ProSense on-interval relay timer appears to be a better fit, 0.1 to 10 minutes timing range, 24-240 VAC operating voltage.

I guess everyone needs to do the math for their own use case. The low end Stenner pumps 8 gal/day. That's 0.024 quarts per minute. I typically dose a quart. That's over 40 minutes. 10 minutes wouldn't be enough on time.

 

[guinness]

ProSense also has model T2S-TT-33-240A with 1 to 100 minutes timing range.

 

[alferz]

I would not view the IntelliCenter as an INDUSTRIAL control system. It is a residential consumer product.

A very good point - I work in the electric utility industry and it sure resembles a piece of ICS, but you are right it lacks key safeguards and feedback loops like a real ICS would have. IMO this equipment really should be built closer to ICS standards. There are significant health and safety issues that are inherent in automating a body of water even in a residential setting, people can get burned, shocked, and poisoned from them after all

 

[alferz]

Here is yet another possible solution to the problem:

Use the Econ-T's built in timer function as the backup/safety that @generessler and @ajw22 suggested. The primary switching control is the Intellicenter - its 24v valve actuator output "Valve B" is scheduled to dose one time a day between the hours of 06:00-08:00 (a configurable number of minutes beginning at 06:00 to match the required dose level (ie 20 oz at .44 oz/min through a 5gpd pump would be a 46 minute dose from 06:00 to 06:46. In no case will the dose end later than 08:00.) The 24vac signal output on the Valve B port connects to a 24vac relay capable of switching 120vac such as this one. This new relay sits in the high voltage compartment of the IC along with the other relays. The relay control signal draws only 17ma, well below what the valve actuators are designed to use so the valve transformer can power it easily. The 120v side of the relay is wired to one of the receptacles on the side of the IC (or to a remote outlet via conduit if needed). The Econ-T pump plugs into this outlet and switches on and off whenever the relay is active and sending it 120vac. No power, no dosing. Finally, the Econ-T timer is programmed to dose from 06:00-08:00. In this way it sets an effective circuit breaker by never allowing more than 2 hours worth of dosage a day (.41 gallons/53.3 oz with the 5gpd pump). On every normal day the dose stops at 06:46 when 120vac gets cut off, but on the one where things go haywire and 120vac keeps flowing to the pump, it definitely stops by 08:00. If power should be applied at 15:00, the pump will not dose due to the set schedule. The Econ-T uses a CR2032 battery to store the time and schedule even without the presence of 120vac.

This doesnt fix the issue of dumping highly concentrated chlorine into a pipe with no flow. To that I say have your injection point on the line going to the pool (never to the spa, dont rely on a valve to enforce this, and use spillover mode to replenish the spa's chlorine supply daily). Also make sure there is a check valve behind the dose point in between any other equipment, especially a heater. The dose point should ideally be the last possible feasible place before water goes back to pool. The IC should be programmed to use a feature circuit that activates pool mode and the filter pump (or a variable speed circuit) and this feature circuit should be assigned to Valve B. Still as @rstrouse pointed out, there are cases where the valve positions and circuits may be overridden, either directly by the user or by a conflicting schedule. Additionally the programming can be error prone, so a skilled Intellicenter HMI operator is going to need to be on hand to maintain this into the future. If someone buys your house, I recommend ripping this whole thing out, it's just not a solution for the average pool owner.

You get the convenience of using IC schedules to adjust the dose while still retaining a failsafe that will prevent losing a whole tank and maybe harming a family member. Win win?

 

[rstrouse]

You can do an entire dosing system for around $700 including the pump, tank, tubing, injector, and microprocessor. This would be fully integrated into IntelliCenter without needing any additional resources from the automation system. All adjustable from your phone and with all the safety checks in play that do not get in the way of normal pool operation.

 

[1poolman1]

Amazon.com. Spend less. Smile more. › Haywar...
Hayward AQL-RELAY-AC-KT 3 HP 240-volt High AC voltage Relay Replacement Kit for Hayward Pool Automation and Control Systems - Amazon.com

This relay is designed to be used in a valve actuator socket. You could then use it to power a 120v Stenner.

 

[alferz]

You can do an entire dosing system for around $700 including the pump, tank, tubing, injector, and microprocessor.

The Stenner Econ-T and gray 7.5 gallon UV tank is $375 from a local supplier. I assume the $700 setup is the Pentair tank and pump? Is there any writeup about this?