Under Construction in NJ - waiting on patio

[mikemikemike13]

Update: walls are up and plumbing is almost complete. It appears they are going to pour the collar on top of the plumbing. Is this okay?



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Hi,
New here. In the process of having a 16x32 vinyl/steel wall pool installed. Found this forum a bit late (after signing contract) but it has been super helpful.

Some background: Of the three quotes I got last summer all three said they would backfill with the excavated dirt so I didn’t question it. Learned after that 3/4 gravel is ideal. I asked my PB (very late) if he could backfill with gravel and how much it would cost. He told me he doesn’t do that and it wasn’t an option. I explained why I wanted that and he said he compacts during backfill and will install sonotubes if I like. He also said I can wait as long as I like to install concrete (3ft included) and I will have an opportunity to discuss that with the mason. During excavation there were a lot of roots which he did his best to keep separate (large pile in the back) which I will dispose of. I plan to also go through the backfill dirt and pulling out anything else I see.

Getting ahead of myself here but, should I still wait until next year to pour the patio? It would be about 1000 sq ft.

 

[cowboycasey]

I missed this... Welcome to TFP

It is your pool and you are paying him... Print off the page for gravel and hand it to him.. Then explain you want gravel and no fill dirt will be used at all... it will settle and crack, even after a year or 2 it can settle... tell him he can use backfill dirt on his pool deck but not yours.. Be polite and respectful at all times and just explain to him what you want, he has no say in what you want for your pool... Just because he has never done it does not make it right...

You can call and have the gravel delivered for him if he likes

Again it is your pool so do what you want

Gravel Around Pools - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

Where in NJ are you? The soil varies around the state.

Let's see what @jimmythegreek would do.

 

[Newdude]

If done correctly the sonotubes basically form a bridge with your patio being the roadway. Whatever/whenever settling happens underneath, your patio will support itself above it. It is the preferred method by me if the customer won’t wait out the settling.

You can greatly help yourself out by removing any grass chunks / roots in the backfill pile so they won’t cause voids down the road. They will decompose and leave a void as big as each chunk.

Now, onto your username.......

 

[cowboycasey]

I have never heard of using sonotubes under a deck... is it better than using gravel?

 

[Newdude]

I have never heard of using sonotubes under a deck... is it better than using gravel

If done correctly with enough ‘legs’ (down to fresh earth) and a thick enough table top, you could dance footloose on top and whatever happened below would never matter.

The material costs go through the roof though. Some even do it under their pavers and it’s as expensive as doing 2 well done patios.

 

[cowboycasey]

I am doing 4 in my front yard for my metal bridge but I never heard of them used under a deck

 

[Newdude]

I am doing 4 in my front yard for my metal bridge but I never heard of them used under a deck

With an unlimited budget, it’s the only way to go. But most of us aren’t afforded that luxury so gravel it is !!!

 

[mikemikemike13]

If done correctly with enough ‘legs’ (down to fresh earth) and a thick enough table top, you could dance footloose on top and whatever happened below would never matter.

The material costs go through the roof though. Some even do it under their pavers and it’s as expensive as doing 2 well done patios.

thanks so much for the response. How many legs would be enough? Theoretically they would mostly be supporting the three feet of patio above the overdig right? PB says his mason uses 4000psi and plans call for minimum 4” slab. I will of course check all of this with the mason when I get there.

 

[mikemikemike13]

Welcome to TFP.

Where in NJ are you? The soil varies around the state.

Let's see what @jimmythegreek would do.

I’m in central NJ.

 

[Newdude]

How many legs would be enough? Theoretically they would mostly be supporting the three feet of patio above the overdig right?

Jimmy will know how many when he is free. On a skinny/narrow patio it’s usually only in the overdig area as when they cut in the fresh dirt to make the patio wider, that’s all been long settled.

Somebody had one done about a year ago. The tubes were about 3 ft apart the whole way around. I’ll see if I can dig it up.

 

[mikemikemike13]

Jimmy will know how many when he is free. On a skinny/narrow patio it’s usually only in the overdig area as when they cut in the fresh dirt to make the patio wider, that’s all been long settled.

Somebody had one done about a year ago. The tubes were about 3 ft apart the whole way around. I’ll see if I can dig it up.

Okay cool. Thanks so much. I saw one on here in LI, if that’s the one you’re talking about.

 

[Newdude]

It could be. That’s where I am too. When I built mine I was told the sonotubes were the only way to go here if you didn’t wait out the settling. Now, to be fair to truely skilled tradespeople who take every care in the world like Jimmy, it might not be needed. But for the ‘average’ random installer...... it’s the only way to go for the pool owner.

 

[mikemikemike13]

It could be. That’s where I am too. When I built mine I was told the sonotubes were the only way to go here if you didn’t wait out the settling. Now, to be fair to truely skilled tradespeople who take every care in the world like Jimmy, it might not be needed. But for the ‘average’ random installer...... it’s the only way to go for the pool owner.

Great, this is the reassurance I was hoping for. I feel more comfortable with the piers as my PB is familiar with doing them and has never used gravel. I think I saw a thread about drainage under gravel fill so even if I paid out of pocket for the gravel and had it delivered, I wouldn’t feel comfortable with my PB learning on my pool. I’d rather just wait if I need.

 

[jimmythegreek]

Are you doing a cantilevered deck or coping and then concrete deck? Or it is gonna be the white metal curve face with concrete up to it?

Sonotubes are great if done right. Personally I only install them under waterfall slabs for insurance and i tie them in with the concrete collar I fibermesh my collars. Under pavers is a waste of time, only stone works in that application.

Basically amy deck is as good as its prep. Just like a paint job. This becomes a change order for the PB as it wasnt specified so it all depends on him now. He has to remove the extra dirt material off site and get the additional stone needed, about a 1.5 to 2 tandems for that size pool roughly. Realistically this is about a grand in material, the labor is same if not less for stone backfill, he doesnt have to compact in lifts. The mix used for a concrete deck should be high strength and the slump carefully watched. Wet concrete loses alot of strength, and the control joints are critical for long term success. Anything organic needs to be gone, if you have roots under the slab its gonna decay with time, then settle and leave voids.

 

[mikemikemike13]

Are you doing a cantilevered deck or coping and then concrete deck? Or it is gonna be the white metal curve face with concrete up to it?

Sonotubes are great if done right. Personally I only install them under waterfall slabs for insurance and i tie them in with the concrete collar I fibermesh my collars. Under pavers is a waste of time, only stone works in that application.

Basically amy deck is as good as its prep. Just like a paint job. This becomes a change order for the PB as it wasnt specified so it all depends on him now. He has to remove the extra dirt material off site and get the additional stone needed, about a 1.5 to 2 tandems for that size pool roughly. Realistically this is about a grand in material, the labor is same if not less for stone backfill, he doesnt have to compact in lifts. The mix used for a concrete deck should be high strength and the slump carefully watched. Wet concrete loses alot of strength, and the control joints are critical for long term success. Anything organic needs to be gone, if you have roots under the slab its gonna decay with time, then settle and leave voids.

This will be a cantilevered deck. Doing just the 3 ft on the back and left side then about 10 ft out past the pool stairs on the right and, from the front, about 17 feet ending 3 feet from the back of my house. I’m not too worried about deep roots in the deck area. I had two very large trees removed, one in the pool area and one along the back overdig area which is where most of those deep roots came from. I would imagine the mason will remove top layer of soil and lay gravel before pouring deck, but I’ll have to cross that bridge when I get there.

It seems that if done right, the piers will allow me to pour this year, so I’m not going to really push for the gravel fill. Appreciate your response.

 

[jimmythegreek]

Depends on what the piers cost you, stone may be cheaper. Theres crews that literally install a pool in 2 days complete with deck, looks great the first few years.
Usually the Mason does the minimum if hes the PB sub. If your gonna push for piers or stone make sure the rest of the base is proper amd compacted correctly. The rest of the deck is just as important as the first 2 feet

 

[mikemikemike13]

Depends on what the piers cost you, stone may be cheaper. Theres crews that literally install a pool in 2 days complete with deck, looks great the first few years.
Usually the Mason does the minimum if hes the PB sub. If your gonna push for piers or stone make sure the rest of the base is proper amd compacted correctly. The rest of the deck is just as important as the first 2 feet

The piers are included in the contracted price. He’s been in business a while, so I’m guessing maybe he’s just set in his ways since it doesn’t appear to be cost effective over gravel fill.

I plan to be much more prepared for the patio pour and have already reached out to some other concrete guys to get competing quotes.

 

[mikemikemike13]

Today they put the walls up and did most of the plumbing. It appears they are going to pour the collar over the pvc, is this okay? Added pictures to my original post.

 

[jimmythegreek]

Not ideal. If theres ever an issue the pipe has to be abandoned as your not busting concrete to get to it. The collar is only 6 to 8" thick, is his piping right in the ground in the overdig?