Uh oh, $2000 pool heater / paperweight

[ulrichsd]

Ok, coming to get the advice of wonderful people at TFP!

A little background, we completely redid our pool 4 years ago, build thread here.

This year, I decided maybe we should get a new heater, the old one that was here is still hooked up, but doesn't work. One of the people who looked at it a while ago said it was severly undersized for the pool (200,000 btu for a 30,000 gallon pool). The gas line is there (with a shutoff valve), so I figured I could save some money and hook it up myself - I had read some forums where people said it was a manageable DIY project. So I ordered a 400,000 btu Hayward H400FDN ($2,000 online, no returns).

The gas line that runs to the heater is sticking out of the ground by the gas meter. I had a plumber come out today and the line is 3/8" so he is thinking the original heater was hooked up to a propane tank sitting next to the gas meter. Our house is low pressure nat gas, so the manual states it would need a 1.5" gas line. Estimate from the plumber is that would be about $5,000 to run 130 feet. And I would have to dig the trench. So that heater just got real expensive. I previously talked to a Hayward service person in the area before and he said it would be $900 to hookup the heater (obviously not including any of the gas line install).

I'm in Cincinnati, OH - we get a lot of sun and use a solar cover, so we debated if we even needed a heater. The plan was to use the heater to extend the pool season on weekends in spring and fall, so it wouldn't be used most of the season.

I found that Hayward has a nat gas to propane conversion kit ($282).

Would propane be a logical way to use this heater?

If yes, would a 250g tank work? Thinking we'd just put it over next to the heater.

Thanks to everyone for any input they can offer on the situation!
Scott

 

[griffths]

$5000 and you do all of the hard work? I would get a second bid.

Once the trench is dug there isn't anything hard about running a gas line. Sounds to me as if your plumber is looking for a windfall thinking your back is against a wall.

I would do my homework before converting to propane since propane can get VERY expensive to use vs. Nat gas. Your 400K heater will be very thirsty keeping your 30,000 gal pool toasty warm.

 

[jimmythegreek]

you might be able to have the gas company bump the pressure up and use regulators but if that line is rly 3/8" i doubt it. I have seen half inch line used on big heaters with high pressure but as previous poster said 5grand for the gas line and you dig is a joke. 130ft of gas line should be about 10 bucks a foot if you dig it. You may be able to get gas company to do the piping they do it here. get a few estimates you can def get it cheaper. And the propane thing is an idea but will end up costing you more than double in price versus gas to heat

 

[ps0303]

Going to propane when you have access to natural gas seems sort of silly, if you ask me. Natural gas is usually cheaper.

As for the cost for the gas line, several factors involved. First, call around and get a few other bids and see where this other company is as far as price goes. Again, lots of factors need to be considered. Remember, 130' of straight gas line also usually doesn't include the risers at each end. Also, are they pulling a permit for this as well? Granted permits aren't expensive, but you must consider every penny into this price.

 

[Killer95Stang]

Could you take a small bath on the heater, maybe losing only $200 or so selling it locally? Then, you could divert the remainder of the money toward a solar heating system. Not sure if that will even work in your area, but in CA it does extend the season quite a bit.

 

[Yev]

I don't think a solar system would be good to extend the season in this area. A lot of the colder weather comes with enough cloud cover, as well as ver low overnight temps, so I doubt a solar system would really extend much.

 

[PoolGate]

Get more bids to see what the line you have will support. See what max they can do out of your existing line. I also have an undersized line that was fixed with a high pressure port installed for free by the gas company for my 400k btu heater. Never trust 1 bid get 3 or 4 at least. Going propane is a bad idea. It is incredibly expensive. If you can't go gas the next best thing is a heat pump but like solar, that will not extend your season. I would not waste your time on solar in your climate.

 

[ulrichsd]

WOW! Jay, Jimmy, Paul, Killer, Yev and PoolGate - thanks to all of you for the great information and recommendations. TFP really is the best!

Alright, that answers one of my questions - propane is out! That was actually a suggestion from the plumber, in which case they wouldn't make any money. So I think he was legitimately trying to help, maybe there prices are just very expensive being a bigger name plumbing group in the area. Also, when I talked to the plumber, he said that converting to high pressure would require the entire house to be converted to high pressure, which would be cost-prohibitive. I'm not sure if that is true, but I'm sure Duke can help answer that tomorrow. I tried to call Duke Energy, but their technical group is already closed for today. I will try again tomorrow.

Regarding solar, as Yev mentioned, we get a wide range of conditions here and quite a few overcast days. The pump area is under shade as well and the house is 130 ft from the pump, plus a 3 story rise to the roof and the rear roof is North facing. I don't know much about solar heating, but I don't think my pump could cover that distance. I do put on and off a solar cover every time we use the pool - with a roller it just takes a couple minutes. It also makes a huge difference not only in pool temp, but also saves a ton on water evaporation and chlorine I have to dose.

I will update everyone regarding what Duke Energy says about the high pressure option and also see if they can do line installation. Then I will also call a few more places to see regarding cost and hopefully can get some ideas over the phone since I know the distance and the line diameter.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and advice!
Scott

 

[PoolGate]

High pressure answer is bunk. They used my same gas meter that I had and added a high pressure port off the side for the pool heater. The rest of the house remained the same. I have 2 gas furnaces, 2 gas fireplaces, a gas stove-top and a gas water heater none of that changed.

 

[jimmythegreek]

Yup that's not true. U can regulate the house like it was and run high pressure to the pool heater and not affect house. 2 psi service isn't gonna be enough for that run and size pipe it would have to be higher I think. Gas company will give u options. Around here they will even do the work

 

[sbcpool]

Just FYI: Propane's energy is about 92,000 BTU per gallon. That means it would take about 5 gallons of propane for each 1°F you add to the pool temperature (assuming 60% efficiency). Even if you only had to raise it 10°F each weekend, you'd only get 5 weekends out of 250 gallons of propane. If it costs anything like it costs here, that would run you about $75 each weekend.

 

[Backyard_Lap_Pool]

The way it was explained to me by the CenterPoint meter swap tech was the service up to the meter comes at about 45 PSI. A normal residential meter steps it down to about 0.5 psi. The new 2 pound meter he put in had a 2 pound leg for the pool equipment and there are regulators directly in front of each heater stepping it down to 0.5 psi. The house has a regulator to step it down to 0.5 psi right at the meter. So no special appliances, water heaters, furnaces or stepdown regulators were required inside the house.

How far is the heater from your existing meter location?

2 pound service from the meter to your heater can put a lot of cubic feet of gas through it even on small pipe sizes.

Endot Industries Inc.

 

[ulrichsd]

Just an update on this thread, since I started it, as I know sometimes people come looking for information, so I thought I'd finish it off.

After the heater sitting through the 2019 season unused I got things in gear this last offseason. I ordered 100 foot of 1.25" HDPE underground gas line and two metal risers. Rented a 4' trencher and dug a 3' trench from the house to the meter. Our energy company (Duke in Cincinnati) requires that they do the underground connections. So I dug the ditch, laid the gas line, had Duke connect the risers, backfilled the dich, had a plumber come out and hook up the gas line to the house and to the heater, and had Duke come back out for an inspection and pressure test (plus they replaced the meter to a bigger size).

It was about $125 to rent the trencher from Home Depot, $750 for the gas line and risers, $75 for Duke to do the pressure test, and $1000 for the plumbing work. I probably overpaid for the plumbing, but it was reputable company and they were responsive (after a few people who never called me back) so I just wanted to get this done. I would have had to rent the trencher and pay Duke Regardless, so I'm guessing I save about $3250 by running the gas line myself, which was basically just ordering it and throwing it in the hole.

Good news, the pool is hot! Hayward 400,000 btus takes the pool up about 1 degree per hour. I've only been running it on the weekends the last few weeks, but its been a cold May, so we will see what the gas bill comes out next month ?

Thanks again to everyone, TFP is the best!!
Scott

 

[ulrichsd]

Pictures

 

[sktn77a]

That's great news! $5000 just to run the pipe was outrageous.