TA and the App

MarieB

Silver Supporter
May 15, 2021
27
Murrieta, Ca
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Nether of those matter if you are following TFPC methods. PoolMath is designed to support TFPC pool care.
In the PoolMath app, does the recommended range for TA account for my CYA? My TA adjusted for CYA is always below the optimal TA range. However my drop test TA is within the range. Please clarify. Thank you.
 

mknauss

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
Bronze Supporter
May 3, 2014
44,345
Laughlin, NV
Pool Size
6000
Surface
Fiberglass
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Does the recommended range for TA account for my CYA? My TA adjusted for CYA is always under the good TA range.
TFPC does not use the adjusted TA values that pool stores do. Poolmath handles that when using the TA for calculating acid amounts, CSI, etc. Always enter your TA value from your own testing into Poolmath without adjustment.
 

MarieB

Silver Supporter
May 15, 2021
27
Murrieta, Ca
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
TFPC does not use the adjusted TA values that pool stores do. Poolmath handles that when using the TA for calculating acid amounts, CSI, etc. Always enter your TA value from your own testing into Poolmath without adjustment.
Please permit another question. I am trying to understand the way things are. So I also use the Taylor water balance calculator to triangulate results. I understand it does not account for salt TDS. And I understand that difference. However the Taylor wheel tool instructs user to adjust TA for CYA in arriving at CSI. So my question I guess should be: what if my CYA is high? Then would that affect what is shown in the app for the TA recommended range? Does CSI not care if individual data points are out of range?
 

mknauss

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
Bronze Supporter
May 3, 2014
44,345
Laughlin, NV
Pool Size
6000
Surface
Fiberglass
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
CSI takes the data you have input into Poolmath for its calculation.
I would suggest you are just confusing yourself with the Taylor thing. You are welcome to use it, but do not compare it to Poolmath. The LSI or SI Taylor generates is old. Based on Steam Boilers. CSI is a newer creation based on pool surfaces.
 
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MarieB

Silver Supporter
May 15, 2021
27
Murrieta, Ca
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
CSI takes the data you have input into Poolmath for its calculation.
I would suggest you are just confusing yourself with the Taylor thing. You are welcome to use it, but do not compare it to Poolmath. The LSI or SI Taylor generates is old. Based on Steam Boilers. CSI is a newer creation based on pool surfaces.
Ok thank you very much
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,239
However the Taylor wheel tool instructs user to adjust TA for CYA in arriving at CSI.
Adjusted TA = TA – (CYA X CYA C.F) – (Borate x Borate CF)

Borate C.F (correction factor) based on pH.

pH.......CF

7.2.....0.051

7.4.......0.0786

7.6......0.1248

7.8......0.1989

Cyanuric Acid correction factor based on pH.

pH........CF

7.0.......0.22

7.1.......0.24

7.2.......0.26

7.3.......0.28

7.4.......0.30

7.5.......0.32

7.6.......0.33

7.7.......0.34

7.8.......0.35

7.9.......0.36

For example, if the pH = 7.6, TA = 90, Borate = 50 and CYA = 70, the adjusted alkalinity is 90 - (70 x 0.33) – (50 x 0.1248) = 60.66.
Does CSI not care if individual data points are out of range?
The CSI is what matters and the individual components are not as important.

Keep the pH between 7.2 and 7.9.

Keep the TA wherever it keeps the pH stable at the pH you want.

Keep the CSI between -0.3 and 0.0.

I recommend keeping the pH at about 7.8 and adjusting the other numbers from there.

Find the TA balance point by starting at about 60 ppm total or at least 40 ppm adjusted.

If the pH is stable, then, you're good.
 
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MarieB

Silver Supporter
May 15, 2021
27
Murrieta, Ca
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
You'll basically get your levels to TFP standards and then tweek them to bring the CSI to where you want to land.
Is there a possibility that you can have high FC, say over 10, and have high pH, say 8+, and still get an acceptable CSI value?
 

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MarieB

Silver Supporter
May 15, 2021
27
Murrieta, Ca
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Adjusted TA = TA – (CYA X CYA C.F) – (Borate x Borate CF)

Borate C.F (correction factor) based on pH.

pH.......CF

7.2.....0.051

7.4.......0.0786

7.6......0.1248

7.8......0.1989

Cyanuric Acid correction factor based on pH.

pH........CF

7.0.......0.22

7.1.......0.24

7.2.......0.26

7.3.......0.28

7.4.......0.30

7.5.......0.32

7.6.......0.33

7.7.......0.34

7.8.......0.35

7.9.......0.36

For example, if the pH = 7.6, TA = 90, Borate = 50 and CYA = 70, the adjusted alkalinity is 90 - (70 x 0.33) – (50 x 0.1248) = 60.66.

The CSI is what matters and the individual components are not as important.

Keep the pH between 7.2 and 7.9.

Keep the TA wherever it keeps the pH stable at the pH you want.

Keep the CSI between -0.3 and 0.0.

I recommend keeping the pH at about 7.8 and adjusting the other numbers from there.

Find the TA balance point by starting at about 60 ppm total or at least 40 ppm adjusted.

If the pH is stable, then, you're good.
That is helpful, thank you. My concern is that elsewhere in the forum it was stated that metals will stain plaster at high FC and high pH so I want to avoid that.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,239
My concern is that elsewhere in the forum it was stated that metals will stain plaster at high FC and high pH so I want to avoid that.
You can run a lower pH, but it is difficult to manage the CSI at lower pH because you need a higher calcium hardness or a higher TA to offset the lower pH.

To keep a pH below 7.6 or 7.7, you might need to use carbon dioxide injection for pH control if you need to keep the TA higher.
 

MarieB

Silver Supporter
May 15, 2021
27
Murrieta, Ca
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
You can run a lower pH, but it is difficult to manage the CSI at lower pH because you need a higher calcium hardness or a higher TA to offset the lower pH.

To keep a pH below 7.6 or 7.7, you might need to use carbon dioxide injection for pH control if you need to keep the TA higher.
Ok thank you
 
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