SWG and Well Water - bad combo?

lews

LifeTime Supporter
Mar 24, 2010
106
Chapel Hill, NC
I was told by a very experienced pool guy that SWG and Well water were not a good combo. I have iron and manganese in mine (an old gold mine is on the property). I have a greensand treatment for the house, but still have to clean the iron/manganese off the toilet bowls every few months, so I know some of these metals are getting through as I top off the pool. He's recommending that I go back to a regular pool and since I'm replacing the water, this is the time to do it. One of the things he mentioned was current that could be generated, causing a plating of the metals in the form of stains. I know there are relatively inexpensive grounding things you can buy, but don't know how effective that is.

So, does anyone agree or disagree that given my well water issues, I should not go with SWG? I must say that our previous pool wasn't SWG, and I've had more problems with the new pool (with SWG) - especially staining. But there are other factors too.
 
If there is a chemistry reason I do not know of one, but others may have more knowledge about it. The biggest issue people have when using a SWCG is rising pH. If they had typically used trichlor (pucks) they are quite acidic and thus depressed pH and lowered TA. With a SWCG you must test pH regularly (at a minimum several times per week) and add muriatic acid as necessary to maintain your pH in the 7's.

What does the 'pool guy' call a 'regular' pool. All have chlorine. Whether it is from SWCG, trichlor, cal-hypo, sodium hypochlorite. Some, primarily trichlor and cal - hypo, come with constituents that you must remove water from pool to remove them.
 
One of the things he mentioned was current that could be generated, causing a plating of the metals in the form of stains.

Your very experienced pool guy is spewing nonsense. The current in a SWG is contained in the cell between the plates and well away from the pool water. There is no science behind his statement.

You may need to deal with metals in your water and that has to do with maintaining proper water chemistry. There are threads from members who have constructed filters to filter iron out of their pool water.

Salt, or the SWG are not to blame for your staining problems.
 
Actually, I've spent years on staining and am very familiar with the issues. I had not heard of SWG making it worse, which is why I asked. I have found the PH management issue myself and that may have contributed to the staining since I was not prepared to manage the ph so often (the pool builder presented SWG as set and forget), and suspect my poor management was part of that as I was tending to it on weekends, given work issues.
 
The higher pH inside the cell (while it is generating), as well as the oxidation potential (presence of chlorine and radical species) can drive the local water conditions into the scaling regime (one would have to look at the Pourbaix diagram). So there is a potential for metals to scale out of solution. They could form as particulates in solution or they could deposit as scale on the SWG plates. Given that the pool water is a mixed component solution, you’d see calcium, iron & maganese as potential deposits. Modern SWGs use periodic current reversal to keep the plates clean but it’s not a perfect solution. You would need to keep a tight control on your saturation index to prevent scale as much as possible. Adding borates will help too as the additional pH buffering of the borates will hold down the pH rise inside the cell. Routine sequestrant use may be a necessity for you or, if you’re up to it, building a prefilter into you fill line.

I would suggest you get at least a portion of the pool volume filled with trucked-in water that is metal free.
 
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Thanks man. Replacing the water with city water is definitely in the plan. I intend to put a quartz finish to help with a good surface, and so this was the time to decide whether to continue with SWG. I can go with a Puck dispenser plus bleach for a while - its easy to switch to SWG - just put in the salt and turn it on. So I think I'll do that. I'm retired now so I can check the pool each day, but my old pool worked with non-SWG, and I can't afford to mess this up. Seriously - I won't have the funds to re-do this again.

Besides my in-house filter, I'm filter the top off water through two RV iron systems in series, dripping the water in to get the most effectiveness. I do use purple stuff, but its expensive, and I havent been putting it in as much as they say - I think a bottle a week. I've got iron level test kits so I can check. I might even try the Culater things - although they strike me as scam.

Anyway, I can tell you how much I appreciate everyone taking the time to care by responding. Every bit helps.


The higher pH inside the cell (while it is generating), as well as the oxidation potential (presence of chlorine and radical species) can drive the local water conditions into the scaling regime (one would have to look at the Pourbaix diagram). So there is a potential for metals to scale out of solution. They could form as particulates in solution or they could deposit as scale on the SWG plates. Given that the pool water is a mixed component solution, you’d see calcium, iron & maganese as potential deposits. Modern SWGs use periodic current reversal to keep the plates clean but it’s not a perfect solution. You would need to keep a tight control on your saturation index to prevent scale as much as possible. Adding borates will help too as the additional pH buffering of the borates will hold down the pH rise inside the cell. Routine sequestrant use may be a necessity for you or, if you’re up to it, building a prefilter into you fill line.

I would suggest you get at least a portion of the pool volume filled with trucked-in water that is metal free.


I would suggest you get at least a portion of the pool volume filled with trucked-in water that is metal free.[/QUOTE]
of the
 
Yep, as much as possible. BTW, I tried to understand the Pourbaix diagram...maybe get the gist but not much more. What may be more interesting is the manganese. It's level is so high (after the whole house filter) that my local county is not recommending we drink the water. I could probably find the numbers, but it must be high to say that. As noted, my property is the site of an old gold mine, so it's ripe for a lot of minerals. I think it's manganese more than iron, and I also believe the manganese is deposit within scale as you suggested was a possible. It's like it's part of a scale deposit, so to get the stain remove, I'd have to remove the scale, and this in turn, could come from poor ph management. I put in a small amount of borates but struggle with some old dogs that I can't control from drinking the water, so I don't really have what I would like in the pool.
 
Gold mines can be scary...manganese, arsenic, heavy metals, etc. So yeah, you might want to keep the bottled water handy for drinking :LOL:

You can definitely prevent the stains and scale with tight control over your pool’s chemistry. @Swampwoman spent years managing high iron issues with her well water.
 

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I came across this article in Aqua magazine. It seems to indicate there are staining issues associated with SWG.

Typical garbage science from Aqua Magazine...one thing to remember is AM is a trade rag for the pool industry and they often let industry insiders write "feature articles" which are almost always biased to their point of view and/or the product they sell.

Let me rebut a few points -

1. Galvanic corrosion - well, I'll give them points for at least showing a Galvanic Corrosion Chart and spelling the word "galvanic" correctly :rolleyes: They are totally WRONG when it comes to SWG's and galvanic corrosion. First off, the titanium metal plates in an SWG are coated with a layer of mixed metal oxide catalyst (ruthenium m oxide and iridium). So, there would be almost no galvanic couple created in that configuration. And, even if titanium is directly exposed, titanium metal is too reactive and forms a passive and adherent titanium oxide layer. There is simply no meaningful way for a Ti/Cu galvanic couple to form....oh, and guess what, the inside of a heater core, the "Copper coil" is actually copper with a passivation layer of copper oxide and calcium scale on it. So again, not really going to find a galvanic effect there.

2. Bad Salt - yes, you can get some impurities in salt. TFP users commented about 2 years ago on Clorox brand pool salt leaving metal stains. They were iron stains and the likely culprit was sodium or potassium ferrocyanide which is often found in salt as an anti caking agent. There can also be other iron impurities and dirt as well in salt. If one uses pool grade salt from a pool store, the purity is higher but you pay a bit more. But, even if one uses the lesser grade of water softener salt, who cares?? Simply add the salt and brush away any dirt or stains that might show up. It's certainly not a reason to abandon an SWG.

3. Sequestrants - Hmmmm, the guy making the comment is the head honcho of SeaKlear....a major manufacturer of sequestrants! I hate to burst their bubble but ALL FORMS OF CHLORINE will oxidize and breakdown sequestering agents...it's called oxidation. Doers this happen faster in an SWG cell....maybe, maybe not, it depends on the type of sequestering agent used. HEDP does breakdown upon exposure to chlorine but PBTC has a 4X lower rate of oxidation from chlorine. And, as TFP states, why does anyone need to use these chemicals regularly?? I run and SWG pool with no staining and no sequestering agents at all...and I have done some for almost 6 years now. Clearly there are other culprits to blame.

4. FC level inside a cell - the article states that the FC level inside as cell can go as high as 50ppm....I don't how their calculating that number but it is most definitely not that high. For example, my SWG theoretically produces 1.4lbs of chlorine gas per 24 hours of run time at 100% output. So that's roughly 0.06 lbs of chlorine gas per hour of run time at 100% output. In order for an SWG to operate, water has to flow through it and most SWG's have a lower limit of 15GPM. So, in one hour of operation, 900 gallons of water flows through the SWG cell. If one adds 0.06 lbs of chlorine gas to 900 gallons of water, you get an increase in FC of ~8ppm. My cell holds about 40 fluid ounces of water. So, if you assume the FC is evenly generated in the cell and dispersed evenly through the total volume of water flowing through it then, at any given instant as water is flowing through the cell, -

8ppm * (40/(900 *128)) = 0.0027ppm FC

So, if they think the FC inside the cell while it is running gets to 50ppm, then they are inhaling way too many chlorine vapors OR they failed basic high school math & chemistry.
 
Typical garbage science from Aqua Magazine...one thing to remember is AM is a trade rag for the pool industry and they often let industry insiders write "feature articles" which are almost always biased to their point of view and/or the product they sell.

Let me rebut a few points -

1. Galvanic corrosion - well, I'll give them points for at least showing a Galvanic Corrosion Chart and spelling the word "galvanic" correctly :rolleyes: They are totally WRONG when it comes to SWG's and galvanic corrosion. First off, the titanium metal plates in an SWG are coated with a layer of mixed metal oxide catalyst (ruthenium m oxide and iridium). So, there would be almost no galvanic couple created in that configuration. And, even if titanium is directly exposed, titanium metal is too reactive and forms a passive and adherent titanium oxide layer. There is simply no meaningful way for a Ti/Cu galvanic couple to form....oh, and guess what, the inside of a heater core, the "Copper coil" is actually copper with a passivation layer of copper oxide and calcium scale on it. So again, not really going to find a galvanic effect there.

2. Bad Salt - yes, you can get some impurities in salt. TFP users commented about 2 years ago on Clorox brand pool salt leaving metal stains. They were iron stains and the likely culprit was sodium or potassium ferrocyanide which is often found in salt as an anti caking agent. There can also be other iron impurities and dirt as well in salt. If one uses pool grade salt from a pool store, the purity is higher but you pay a bit more. But, even if one uses the lesser grade of water softener salt, who cares?? Simply add the salt and brush away any dirt or stains that might show up. It's certainly not a reason to abandon an SWG.

3. Sequestrants - Hmmmm, the guy making the comment is the head honcho of SeaKlear....a major manufacturer of sequestrants! I hate to burst their bubble but ALL FORMS OF CHLORINE will oxidize and breakdown sequestering agents...it's called oxidation. Doers this happen faster in an SWG cell....maybe, maybe not, it depends on the type of sequestering agent used. HEDP does breakdown upon exposure to chlorine but PBTC has a 4X lower rate of oxidation from chlorine. And, as TFP states, why does anyone need to use these chemicals regularly?? I run and SWG pool with no staining and no sequestering agents at all...and I have done some for almost 6 years now. Clearly there are other culprits to blame.

4. FC level inside a cell - the article states that the FC level inside as cell can go as high as 50ppm....I don't how their calculating that number but it is most definitely not that high. For example, my SWG theoretically produces 1.4lbs of chlorine gas per 24 hours of run time at 100% output. So that's roughly 0.06 lbs of chlorine gas per hour of run time at 100% output. In order for an SWG to operate, water has to flow through it and most SWG's have a lower limit of 15GPM. So, in one hour of operation, 900 gallons of water flows through the SWG cell. If one adds 0.06 lbs of chlorine gas to 900 gallons of water, you get an increase in FC of ~8ppm. My cell holds about 40 fluid ounces of water. So, if you assume the FC is evenly generated in the cell and dispersed evenly through the total volume of water flowing through it then, at any given instant as water is flowing through the cell, -

8ppm * (40/(900 *128)) = 0.0027ppm FC

So, if they think the FC inside the cell while it is running gets to 50ppm, then they are inhaling way too many chlorine vapors OR they failed basic high school math & chemistry.

That's why I post questions here - knowledgeable people with no interest in the outcome. Thank you for the time it took to read and dissect - it's truly helpful to me and I'm sure others. I am pushing this issue because I'm re-plastering and am very (very) worried about staining. The staining in my pool is like long brush mark arcs of stain in the deep end, as if it's embedded in the pool plaster (can't show photos right now because of winter). With Jack's test kit, the only thing that took off the stains was the Copper and Scale test. Even starting with city water, and filtered topoffs, I've experiienced frustrating the swings in PH, the chlorine swings (hayward SWG was malfunctioning despite Hayward saying otherwise), expensive Purple stuff, etc. I did not find the SWG to be lower maintenance than my old pool with a chlorine tab dispenser. I've been with TFP for years and have tried to be diligent about the pool, and obviously failed, but not without a lot of effort. The ph is the biggest problem, as I had no understanding on the consistency needed to keep adding muriatic acid at $14 gallon - 24K gallon pool 1/2 gallon a week.

But I know my current situation is very different than my old non-SWG pool, even though both used well water. So I'm deciding whether to go back to the SWG or not after the re-plaster. I've already sunk the costs of SWG and would prefer to keep it obviously. Please help if you will:

1. So you're saying keep SWG. Non-SWG is not a better alternative, if I maintain chemistry. I'll be putting new city water in the pool during re-plaster. Well is just for topping (and have greensand filters).
2. There's a Bundy Waterbug, Bonding kit on Amazon for $40 - worth doing?
3. Using Pebble Sheen, any special things you'd do in the re-plastering, given my situation?
4. Hayward CAT-1000 automated ph controller. Very expensive at $2400. I suspect the answer to this depends on whether I'm able to carefully manage ph manually. If I commit to that, do you believe this automated control is necessary?
5. Anything wrong with Lowes salt for the pool?

thanks for the input.
 
I am planning to install a Pentair Acid Tank with a pump soon - I will be hooking it up to my Jandy automation panel and programming it to turn it on for 1 minute each day (or something like that), to inject a little acid each day into my pool to keep the PH in check. I use on average 16oz of the weaker MA each week in my 14,000 gal pool.

The tank/pump combo is in the $320 range - My Jandy automation panel will be able to control it fortunately, but there are other options, like a simple transformer and timer circuit, that could be setup for this tank pretty easily. Having an automated acid addition should make my pool maintenance even easier. It might be something for you to look into if you don't want to deal with weekly acid additions.

There are a few frequent posters on the board who have this Pentair system in various configurations and have posted good reviews of it. I can find some of the threads and link them if you are interested.
 
1. So you're saying keep SWG. Non-SWG is not a better alternative, if I maintain chemistry. I'll be putting new city water in the pool during re-plaster. Well is just for topping (and have greensand filters).

Yes, and here’s why - SWG’s are the easiest way to maintain a consistent FC level with minimal to no thoughts on the part of the pool owner. You have already said that your pool water chemistry has gotten away from you in the past. The last thing you want to have happen to a newly resurfaced pool is to get an algae bloom. That would be way more likely to leave stains on your plaster than any theoretical metal staining issue.

2. There's a Bundy Waterbug, Bonding kit on Amazon for $40 - worth doing?

Your pool water is already bonded to your electrical system so adding a thru-skimmer bonding plate does nothing for you but lighten your wallet. It would be useless.

3. Using Pebble Sheen, any special things you'd do in the re-plastering, given my situation?

There are entire articles in Pool School and many posts on this forum by @onBalance about plastering, plaster problems and how not to get taken-in by disreputable contractors. I suggest you search on that and read them. If you have specific plaster issues (with pictures), you can add that to this post and hopefully @onBalance can comment.

4. Hayward CAT-1000 automated ph controller. Very expensive at $2400. I suspect the answer to this depends on whether I'm able to carefully manage ph manually. If I commit to that, do you believe this automated control is necessary?

That sounds like one of their chemistry management systems, typically referred to as Sense & Dispense. You don’t need that. As others have said, a simple acid dosing system, like the Pentair IntelliPH will do just fine.

5. Anything wrong with Lowes salt for the pool?

Personally I’d just pay the extra $2/per bag and buy the Leslie’s pool grade salt. In a pool your size you’re looking at 8-10 40lbs bags of salt...so like an extra $20. Salt is cheap, just buy the “good stuff” and not worry about it.
 
I have found good price and quality with Mortons Pool Salt at Walmart. Steer away from Clorox Pool Salt.
 
I am planning to install a Pentair Acid Tank with a pump soon - I will be hooking it up to my Jandy automation panel and programming it to turn it on for 1 minute each day (or something like that), to inject a little acid each day into my pool to keep the PH in check. I use on average 16oz of the weaker MA each week in my 14,000 gal pool.

The tank/pump combo is in the $320 range - My Jandy automation panel will be able to control it fortunately, but there are other options, like a simple transformer and timer circuit, that could be setup for this tank pretty easily. Having an automated acid addition should make my pool maintenance even easier. It might be something for you to look into if you don't want to deal with weekly acid additions.

There are a few frequent posters on the board who have this Pentair system in various configurations and have posted good reviews of it. I can find some of the threads and link them if you are interested.

No, you've done enough, thank you. I'll find them. I already use an injection system (soda ash solution) to adjust the ph of the house water, and it was also in the $300 range. It actually would work fine by simply putting it on a landscape light timer. It's adjustable and comes on when the water flows, with an injection into the flowing water - easy to put it after the SWG unit. But I'll also check other posts. My pool is about twice your volume, so it's really a fairly major part of maintenance to keep the ph in check. Thanks again for your time - I'll make sure to pass it forward.

Oh... one last thing though. What do you think of the water bonding thing? Worthwhile?

Lewis
 
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