Sustain users READ THIS!

pooldv

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
Moderator Emeritus
Aug 10, 2012
25,412
FL panhandle
I suspect the sustain folks won't tell us what is in it because there isn't any chemical that can actually do that. So if they told us what it was then any amateur chemist could quickly debunk their theory. Not that we believe them anyway.
 

mikefamig

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2017
314
Connecticut
Don't all get your panties in a knot. I have no affiliation with Sustain and am stating facts as I received them from a chemist that does work at the chemical company that makes the product. Do you guys believe in alternative energy sources?

Remember, people once thought that the world was flat and that the horse would never be replaced by the automobile. Keep an open mind.

I have been working to learn how Sustain works and I have been sharing what I've been learning. You ask good questions concerning the product but do nothing to find your own answers. I had no idea that i would cause such a stir by sharing the fruit of my labor. A simple thanks would suffice.

Mike.
 

mikefamig

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2017
314
Connecticut
Understand that I have been caring for my pool since 1996 and am new to Sustain and share all of your concerns about unknown chemicals. I have been learning all that I can about it and am in the process of deciding whether to continue it or abandon it. Live and Learn with the key word being "LEARN".

Mike.
 

pooldv

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
Moderator Emeritus
Aug 10, 2012
25,412
FL panhandle
Yes, we also want to learn which is why we ask questions. Unfortunately, they aren't willing to answer the most basic questions. What is it and how does it work? They are stuck in the middle ages, not us. Trust us, it just works, they say. We are the people who question the people who say trust us the world is flat. We are the people who embrace the science of the chlorine/CYA relationship, not ignore it. We're not the ones trying to perpetuate use of secret chemicals in pools. We think educating and informing people is the best way.

We want facts not marketing noise.

BTW, you were the one who asked for a sticky warning people against using the product.
 

Donldson

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
4,708
NW Ohio
Let me make sure I am understanding you: You believe that someone with a financial incentive to sell a product is a good source of information and should not be questioned when making claims that sound fishy? That such a person is beyond reproach in such claims and must be completely trustworthy? This is what you are saying?

And forgive me for expecting the person making claims to back up those claims. I didn't realize it was our task to back up the things you are saying.

I also congratulate you for bringing out the old "people once thought..." chestnut. The standard go-to for those peddling pseudoscience and the impossible. Let me throw my own out, "people once thought Radon was healthy and lead in gasoline was harmless because they believed the scientists who had a financial interest in those industries." That's a pretty good chestnut, huh? I even have the data to back that one up, you don't have to take my word that people did that I can offer proof.

Regardless, I personally would be quite happy to keep an open mind. However, if by "open mind" you mean "mindlessly following instructions" then I'm out. Give me a chemical name, I will keep an open mind as I help others research it. Otherwise, you have offered up absolutely nothing worth opening my mind to.
 

mikefamig

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2017
314
Connecticut
I am not going to let this become a war of words, chemistry can be proven and dis-proven. I have requested more info and can share what I learn if anyone is interested.I did ask for a sticky to alert people to the fact that you will never get a 0 CC reading when using Sustain. i did not promote or bash the product.

Mike.
 

triptyx

TFP Guide
Apr 12, 2016
1,512
Tucson, AZ
Chemistry is chemistry. It's quantifiable, testable, and repeatable. Either a hypothesis works and the expected result is reached or it is not - this is the very basis of hard science.

Sustain is snake oil. It's garbage. If it were not, they would have plenty of information (and a patent to protect their innovation) on how it works exactly. Instead, they say "trust us". You're defending and arguing about their product in such a way as to make it sound like you're attempting to advertise their product through creating an argument and drama. Anyone who uses and understands the TFP method understands that they do not need it to have a clean, clear, sparkling pool. Since they don't need it to have a sparkling pool, they don't need to spend any of their hard earned money on it.

The main takeaway for me is that you have to drain your pool to get rid of it. So while you're spending money on their products, remember that their product is irreversible unless you spend hundreds of dollars on new water - and that's assuming you don't have water restrictions in your area.

My personal guess is that it's just overpriced bromine and bromine support products.
 

mikefamig

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2017
314
Connecticut
Regardless, I personally would be quite happy to keep an open mind. However, if by "open mind" you mean "mindlessly following instructions" then I'm out. Give me a chemical name, I will keep an open mind as I help others research it. Otherwise, you have offered up absolutely nothing worth opening my mind to.[/QUOTE]

I have not suggested doing anything mindlessly. On the contrary, I've been researching this topic for weeks and have shared the result of my research in this forum. So far for this I have seen a guy named Dom thanked for my work and been accused of being something like a witch.

The Sustain is in my water and so I am learning what I can about it. You guys are treating me like a blasphemer for even talking about a method other than yours. That is far less than open minded.

Mike.
 

mikefamig

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2017
314
Connecticut
Here's a link at this site to a post by a user called "chem geek" concerning the chemicals in Sustain. I know nothing of it's validity but it's worth the read. Search the page for the word "patent".

New Pool Owner

Mike.
 

domct203

Bronze Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
TFP Guide
Jun 3, 2015
3,959
CT
So far for this I have seen a guy named Dom thanked for my work .........
I was thanked for linking your elevated CC thread to this Sustain thread, no need to be upset about it. The guides and mods were all curious about the elevated CC's, and couldn't quite figure it out until this thread.

I'm glad you have brought this 'Sustain' product to the forefront so others do not make the same mistake and fall for the marketing Baloney Sandwich, thank you. But there is no 'magic bullet' to water sanitation, regardless of what these companies would like you to think.

This all reminds me of the Tobacco industry decades ago, and how the US Surgeon General's office had to force them to disclose that smoking cigarettes can kill you. All they cared about was the $$$, and how they could spin their product to appeal to the masses.
 

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mikefamig

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2017
314
Connecticut
and here's a link to the patent in question. It is owned by PPG the maker of Sustain

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=16&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&p=1&p=1&S1=%28PPG.ASNM.+AND+%28%28%22hypochlorous+acid%22.BSUM.+or+%22hypochlorous+acid%22.DETD.+or+%22hypochlorous+acid%22.DRWD.%29%29%29&OS=AN/PPG+AND+SPEC/%22hypochlorous+acid%22&RS=%28AN/PPG+AND+SPEC/%22hypochlorous+acid%22%29

- - - Updated - - -

I was thanked for linking your elevated CC thread to this Sustain thread, no need to be upset about it. The guides and mods were all curious about the elevated CC's, and couldn't quite figure it out until this thread.

I'm glad you have brought this 'Sustain' product to the forefront so others do not make the same mistake and fall for the marketing BS, thank you. But there is no 'magic bullet' to water sanitation, regardless of what these companies would like you to think.

This all reminds me of the Tobacco industry decades ago, and how the US Surgeon General's office had to force them to disclose that smoking cigarettes can kill you. All they cared about was the $$$, and how they could spin their product to appeal to the masses.

Dom

No hard feelings. The link that you pointed to was mine and you were thanked for the great work. it just irked me a little.

Mike.
 

pookiesunshine

Gold Supporter
May 12, 2016
599
Cincinnati, OH
mike, i'm interested to learn what you find out, if anything. it seems to me though, that the shield is simply a related form of cya and if you need cya anyway, do not see any advantage of using it. if you read your linked chem geek article, cya also releases fc. thanks for your efforts.
 

mikefamig

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2017
314
Connecticut
Understand that at this point I expect that I will discontinue the Sustain when I run out of the product. In the meantime I have learned how to treat the water going forward. I just can't justify the cost for what benefit it offers.

I don't trust Sustain's claims at face value. I don't trust when you guys tell me to run far and run fast at face value. I have learned a lot from the company and I have learned a lot from you guys in the past two weeks. Live and learn.

Mike.
 

mikefamig

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2017
314
Connecticut
To be clear for the record- the sustain is responsible for about 1ppm - 2ppm of my CC readings. I began with a CC reading over 7ppm which was proven to be mostly chloramines proven by the fact that I was able to reduce that reading to slightly above 1ppm this morning. How it got that high is still a mystery to me.

Sustain Summershield can not be removed by break-point chlorination even when maintained for two weeks so my reduction in CC is assumed to have been caused by chlorine combined with bacteria. It is also supported by the fact that I was growing algae. Also the CC reading has seemed to bottom at 1 as it has stalled there for two days at/above break-point FC level. I am ready to let the FC drop and go swimming.

All this Sustain noise aside, thanks for the help getting my water cleaned up.

Mike.

- - - Updated - - -

mike, i'm interested to learn what you find out, if anything. it seems to me though, that the shield is simply a related form of cya and if you need cya anyway, do not see any advantage of using it. if you read your linked chem geek article, cya also releases fc. thanks for your efforts.

Yes good point. I'm not defending Sustain as you can see if you read my posts, I was kind of cast into that role by continuing to ask questions about whether or not to abandon it.

Mike.
 

Oly

Gold Supporter
Jun 28, 2017
1,834
Fresno, CA
Pool Size
27000
Hi Mike,

I want to start by saying I am impressed with your levelheadedness and the fact that you did not blow up and go away while screaming foul language then posting on another site about how TFP was just a "chlorine site". ;)

That said I think TFP is a gold mine for pool owners and I appreciate the healthy skepticism and attention to detail that goes on here. I also believe in getting straight to the point and calling things out when I suspect deception. I am new here and have experienced great success and education recently following the sound advice of TFP members from their personal experiences backed by scientific knowledge and testing.

So thank you for letting me know about this "new" product and getting the information fire going in here. I would never use a product without knowing exactly what it is chemically and yes I am interested in what it actually is. I hope you don't pay too high a price for being a guinea pig.
 

xyz

Gold Supporter
Sep 8, 2016
641
Escondido/CA
X2. reason, facts, and logic (TFP) make for a bullet proof approach. Unless the facts change, the data is in error, or there is a logic flaw, you can have high confidence in the result.

I too too am insanely curious about what chemical this is that is supposed to do this AND Shows up as CC. maybe one of our chemists can help us under the CC test and provide some clues as to what this material might be.
 

JoyfulNoise

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
May 23, 2015
17,714
Tucson, AZ
Pool Size
16000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Mike,

This post brings up a very good point - pool owners need to approach ALL pool chemical "systems" with a very healthy dose of skepticism. I have said this before long ago in another post - there is nothing new under the sun in the world of pool water chemistry. It's human nature to believe that pool chemistry should be like Apple and that there's a Steve Jobs out there that is going to invent some revolutionary new pool product that is going to make pool care as simple as breathing. The simple truth is that everything on the market today has been around for decades and 99.9% of the products out there are just repackaged and rebranded chemicals with no greater efficacy than generic brand chemicals. There is no magic bullet combination of chemicals out there and people looking at any chemical system should simply assume from the get-go that it is a sham looking to take your money. TFP teaches people to use the least number of widely available pool chemicals and to only add chemicals with known effects. None of this has the fancy marketing or glossy sales ads that the pool chemical companies spend millions of dollars on but everything TFP teaches WORKS and works well enough for 99.9% of the pools out there.

In general, most consumers have no formal chemistry training, so it is easy to get duped into thinking that these systems MUST work. We're all programed as children to believe that snake-oil salesman don't exist anymore because we're in the USA and we have consumer product safety laws and cannery-row and all that stuff. The truth is, product labelling laws in the US are a joke because we allow any company to call something a ham-sandwich even when it contains no ham as long as the phrase, "This product contains no ham.", is printed somewhere on the label in whatever micron-scale sized font the seller chooses to use. Or, as with pool chemicals, companies are allowed to get away with calling something a sanitizer even when it has no provable sanitizing power as long as there is some disclaimer somewhere that says "You must use an approved EPA sanitizer in conjunction with this product." It's all a legalized joke and the joke is on the consumer that gets shafted with this junk.

Thanks for posting this information as it is a good reminder to all that read it.
 

mikefamig

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2017
314
Connecticut
Hi Mike,

I want to start by saying I am impressed with your levelheadedness and the fact that you did not blow up and go away while screaming foul language then posting on another site about how TFP was just a "chlorine site". ;)

That said I think TFP is a gold mine for pool owners and I appreciate the healthy skepticism and attention to detail that goes on here. I also believe in getting straight to the point and calling things out when I suspect deception. I am new here and have experienced great success and education recently following the sound advice of TFP members from their personal experiences backed by scientific knowledge and testing.

So thank you for letting me know about this "new" product and getting the information fire going in here. I would never use a product without knowing exactly what it is chemically and yes I am interested in what it actually is. I hope you don't pay too high a price for being a guinea pig.

I'm pretty thick skinned and a graduate of a a state technical high school and state technical college so I tend to analyze things more than most. I agree that this site has a wealth of knowledge and experience to learn from but I think that it is a stretch to call this a new product or talk about guinea pigs. There are references on this site to sustain that go back to 2009 and as far as I know it may have been around for longer than that. I can say that it is very popular with pool owners in this area which is why I tried it.

Mike.
 

JanHan

Silver Supporter
Jul 3, 2016
81
DFW, TX
I'm not sure if this helps, but I looked up the company who manufactures these products, Axiell. Searched through their product line. This screenshot may/may not be the Summer Shield ingredients, because they don't specifically use the name in the title. But by manner of deduction once you rule out their pucks etc. It could be. Bromine is listed as an ingredient. Or it may have zero to do with any of this..just thought it was interesting.
8b8b56b12cbd11ae5108bb32cf7e4474.jpg
 

tim5055

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
May 11, 2014
11,115
Franklin, NC
Here's a link at this site to a post by a user called "chem geek" concerning the chemicals in Sustain. I know nothing of it's validity but it's worth the read. Search the page for the word "patent".

New Pool Owner

Mike.
chem geek (Richard) is the the gold standard by which pool,water chemistry is compared. While he hasn't posted here in a while, he is a regular contributor to pool industry publications, scientific journals dealing with pool water science and governing bodies such as the EPA.

The first line of his post says it all, "use something else"

If he tells me that, I pay attention and do what he says......
 

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