SLAM Criteria Disagreement

Gx

LifeTime Supporter
May 17, 2013
41
Lexington, Ky
Well, you know where it's going:

1) if you have a larger pool, SLAM chlorine gets expensive.
2) 2021: many (most all in my area) stores are sold out of 'pool chlorine' (liquid & tablets!).

As you can see in the threads, we are regularly going ~10 days, just waiting for the water to clear.
Surely we shouldn't have to spend $200+ (& fight our neighbors) on liquid chlorine every year, especially for a salt pool.

Now, can you chem geniuses say that SLAM level of chlorine is actually not required after passing OCLT & CC tests?
If not, we can take it.
But, I have seen a few comments to the contrary.

I put this in "The Deep End", so we supposedly don't have to be newbie-correct, & just blindly say "keep FC at SLAM level."
I apologize if anyone is offended. I tend to be blunt, & even "devil's advocate", just to get to the point.
 
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YippeeSkippy

Mod Squad
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Jan 17, 2012
17,425
Evans, Georgia
What does you water look like? What are your test results? If your water is clear, your CCs <0.5 and you pass the OCLT= why SLAM????

Have you searched out *plain liquid bleach*?? Plain, Unscented, non-thickened?, Non-Cloramax type laundry bleach.

Have you checked the local Feed and Tractor type stores? Animal farms use a lot of chlorine at times. How about the Janitorial warehouse..

Maddie :flower:
 
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Gx

LifeTime Supporter
May 17, 2013
41
Lexington, Ky
I REALLY don't appreciate this NEW thread (post #34) being moved.
They are NOT about the same thing, & we are now arguably in the wrong forum!
How do I even know who moved it?
 

Gx

LifeTime Supporter
May 17, 2013
41
Lexington, Ky
So, there's a forum graveyard. Thanks mod!

We've all seen useful forums die on the internet.
The 1st step? over zealous moderators !

I've been using this forum for 8 years, & have found lots of good info.
However, we are definitely seeing the classic signs of cult forum beginning. Can it be fixed once begun?
 

Newdude

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jun 16, 2019
10,488
NY
Surely we shouldn't have to spend $200+ (& fight our neighbors) on liquid chlorine every year, especially for a salt pool.
Well, You can go the Leslies route. $200 is half a trip there and it takes several for them to ‘fix’ it for a few weeks. Then start from square one with the battle all over again.

You do you, but the overwhelming majority of people who have problems got there on their own accord by not maintaining their pool properly. Sometime’s it’s life’s fault and not just laziness. Your job takes you away for 3 weeks or there is a family emergency that takes precidence. If those aren’t the case, they have nobody to blame but themselves.
 

Newdude

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jun 16, 2019
10,488
NY
However, we are definitely seeing the classic signs of cult forum beginning. Can it be fixed once begun
Wouldn’t be the first time we were called a cult, but it’s a specific forum devoted to discussing a specific method. Go to a Corvette forum and see how much they care about your Honda.

Join the club and get one. Don’t get one but still enjoy the discussion. But don’t hang out when it doesn’t suit you and be a jerk about it.
 
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Donldson

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,096
NW Ohio
I apologize if anyone is offended. I tend to be blunt, & even "devil's advocate", just to get to the point.
Cool, let me give this "being blunt" thing a try:

Just because people weren't giving your post the respect and time you feel it deserved doesn't mean the forum is a cult. It means you posted up some meandering thoughts about a supposed shortage and vague inferences that we should change (was hard to tell) and there was no good core concept that was worthy of discussion. You then followed that up with a post complaining about your post being moved. Why exactly would anyone see that and think "this is someone I definitely want to engage in conversation with"?

Then when nobody wants to engage with you you decide to post again about how the forum is going to die because nobody is taking you as seriously as you are taking yourself? Know why nobody had time for this? Because we have so many new people joining that we're running around trying to help them. Arguing with someone who posted a few thoughts about SLAM criteria and then felt belittled about it getting moved (many posts get moved every day) is really low on anyone's list of priorities.

Face it: your attempt at advocating for Ol' Scratch just wasn't that intriguing. The only one offended here appears to be you.

(dear mods, I promise that if this post needs to be moved I won't be offended :goodjob: )
 
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Mdragger88

Bronze Supporter
Jun 1, 2018
2,798
Hernando, Ms
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To address the initial question -
assuming u mean “why continue slam level when you have passed 2 of the 3 end of slam criteria” aka every thing but clear water.
Reason #1 :
if you are continuing to see new dead algae daily that means at one point (in the very recent past) it was new alive algae so it must be killed until you see no more signs of algae period - dead or alive- if you wish to eradicate algae & not have to play with it again later. Dead algae doesn’t reproduce.
Reason #2 :
The goal of the tfp methodology & SLAM Process is to ELIMINATE algae once & for all then maintain your trouble free pool so you never get algae again (see reason#1)
Of note: when in the final stage of slamming if the only criteria left to pass is the crystal clear water ✅ usually the fc demand is quite low so it doesn’t require nearly as much bleach as in the beginning however ending too soon may require you to begin again in a few days/weeks thus requiring even greater amounts of bleach, time, & $$. So basically stopping short of the finish line is often penny wise but pound foolish.
 

Texas Splash

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Jun 22, 2014
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Gx, I wasn't the MOD who moved your post, but I'll give you some things to consider from a MOD's perspective:

First, I suspect your post was moved because there was a concern that it could negatively influence someone, the original poster perhaps, or just someone who may be new to TFP reading the thread trying to perform a SLAM. I don't have all the details on that history, but this is common so that the OP doesn't get confused. Before the Agree to Disagree sub-forum was created, distracting posts would probably just be deleted. At least this way you still have a way to vent and continue a discussion washout effecting someone's thread.

Second is that your initial concern about the cost of chlorine is actually quite valid. It may not always seem like it, but we do consider the cost of chlorine versus a water exchange for those who are able to do it based on their equipment, water history/condition, water table wells, etc. While it may seem like the term SLAM is almost automatic, those here with experience do consider all those options. The OCLT is used as a measuring tool, but it's not the only one. There have been some rare cases where even when passing an OCLT a SLAM is still needed, so again, lots to consider.

As for the cult thing, I guess it's all about perceptions. You have a valid emotion based on your post being moved and a belief that we all stick together. To some degree that is true, not out of personal loyalty however, it's more for the good of the TFP forum itself. Whether it's a rule violation or chemical level, it's all about fairness and standardization. We're all volunteers, so even as MODS we need to support the intent and direction of TFP, the owner who appoints us, and those who founded its principles of TFPC management.

Even as MODs we have some pretty intense discussions behind the scenes where we don't agree 100% of the time, but how we get the point across to each other makes the difference between a productive conversation or something destructive.
 

Gx

LifeTime Supporter
May 17, 2013
41
Lexington, Ky
Thanks, some of you, for your informative posts.
I guess I'm glad this is 'resurrected', though perhaps in the wrong forum, & a few seem to have been offended.

@Texas Splash : Thanks for the info &
"First, I suspect your post was moved because there was a concern that it could negatively influence someone, the original poster perhaps, or just someone who may be new to TFP reading the thread trying to perform a SLAM. I don't have all the details on that history, but this is common so that the OP doesn't get confused."
"I put this in "The Deep End", so we supposedly don't have to be newbie-correct, & just blindly say "keep FC at SLAM level.""

This is not about me, nor even a particular situation, this year or past.
There are many here spending significant $$ and time on LC, several days after they have passed OCLT & CC SLAM tests.
The simple question is: Is this necessary?

There are other negatives besides cost: swimming!?!, stores sold out of LC, can't measure/correct pH, ...

@Mdragger88 : I don't know if it's dead algae. The pool is cloudy, extremely slowly improving. I am not the 1st with this issue.
Do we have a good chemical/math answer to whether SLAM chlorine level should be maintained after passing CC & OCLT tests?

Are we saying that the 'guarantee' of keeping FC at SLAM level a week+ after passing OCLT & CC tests (5 days in a row) outweighs all of the negatives?
If so, so be it.
 

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Newdude

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jun 16, 2019
10,488
NY
Are we saying that the 'guarantee' of keeping FC at SLAM level a week+ after passing OCLT & CC tests (5 days in a row) outweighs all of the negatives?
If so, so be it.
We are saying that the Algae cannot survive at SLAM level. Visible algae (cloudiness) fails the SLAM exit criteria and time and time and time again, anyone who has not passed all 3 exit criteria is right back at square one before long.

Sure it’s nice in a way for the tests to back up your eyes, but if there is something wrong that you can see, You don’t need the tests to prove there is something wrong.
There are other negatives besides cost: swimming!?!, stores sold out of LC, can't measure/correct pH, ..
Swimming does not count as a negative. You can safely swim up to and including SLAM level. You cannot swim if you can’t see the bottom, but that is a drowning / swimmer safety concern, not an unsafe water concern.

The PH test being invalid is also kinda invalid as a negative because this is why you started the SLAM at the lower 7.2 PH. To buy whatever time was needed for the full SLAM.

Whether or not the stores are fully stocked with chlorine will not remove algae from your pool. I get the struggle. I do. But that’s another discussion and isn’t going to help you convince the algae to leave. Sorry guys, I can’t get chlorine. Can we take a rain check and do this next month ?
 

Leebo

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Jul 21, 2011
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Of note: when in the final stage of slamming if the only criteria left to pass is the crystal clear water ✅ usually the fc demand is quite low so it doesn’t require nearly as much bleach as in the beginning however ending too soon may require you to begin again in a few days/weeks thus requiring even greater amounts of bleach, time, & $$. So basically stopping short of the finish line is often penny wise but pound foolish.
How much chlorine loss are you seeing per day? I know full well SLAM's are going to be more difficult this year but in your case it sounds like you shouldn't be seeing major decreases in chlorine. Sounds like the worst is already past you.
 

yblaser

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2010
45
Torrance, CA
I've been here a while and don't post often, but have to say this is one of the friendliest, informative, and well run forums on the internet. This is a testament to all the time volunteered by the moderators and experts who help both new and seasoned pool owners. Forums like this only die when they are poorly moderated, threads devolve into arguments or are full of irrelevant or false information, and the experts see no value in spending their time here.

I see the TFP philosophy as a set of steps/rules/guidelines that will work, not might work. Everybody is free to experiment with their own pool, and you may choose to stop the SLAM process before the pool is clear. You might end up okay, but you also might end up dealing with a full algae outbreak putting you back to square one. Every pool and algae outbreak is going to be unique and you will not be able to tell a priori which result you will get. As said above, this would seem to be penny wise and pound foolish.
 

Gx

LifeTime Supporter
May 17, 2013
41
Lexington, Ky
@Leebo: THIS thread is [supposedly] not about me nor any particular opening.
But, let's suppose that a brother is using 5-7 gallons of LC per day, reckon mostly depending on the sun.
There are many 'opening' threads here over the years with this situation.

I am looking for a chemical/math answer on whether FC level can be dropped after passing SLAM CC & OCLT tests.
Surely someone has tried this.
If you pass OCLT & CC tests many days in a row, why keep SLAM FC level ?

BTW, a FC level of 20 is not easy on the eyes.
 

Katodude

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Aug 22, 2017
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Someone may have tried it and it may have worked. Does not mean it will work all the time. The TFP method works, period. However, it is your pool, do whatever you want, just dont expect this site to endorse it.

As for finding LC be a little creative. Check janitorial supply places. LC is not just used in pools.

Frankly, if I was going to be doing a swamp, I would go straight to buying a 55 gallon drum of LC, rather than trying to haul a bunch of 1 gallon containers.
 
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Leebo

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I understand the hypothetical thinking, but why you’re saying simply isn’t legit. Let’s assume a user has a 20,000 gallon pool and uses the 5 gallons of 10% that you mentioned. This means you’re adding 25ppm of chlorine per day. This means there’s gotta be something going on. There’s no reason you need to be adding that much chlorine……..unless you still have algae.

As for your idea of dropping it down,
In short, yes you can. Anything above the FC/CYA ratio is killing algae. You’re making progress…..but you’re also leaving the door wide open for algae to take off.
If you pass OCLT & CC tests many days in a row, why keep SLAM FC level ?
Keeping the FC at SLAM level keeps the chlorine increased to break down any algae that may still be there and does so at a very rapid pace. If there’s no algae in the water and the user is simply waiting on the filter to do its job then this overkill costs the user very little, even now when chlorine is hard to find. If their pool passes the OCLT and such they’re not going to use many ppm of chlorine.
 

Pv2

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 14, 2013
1,082
south east Arizona
@Leebo: THIS thread is [supposedly] not about me nor any particular opening.
But, let's suppose that a brother is using 5-7 gallons of LC per day, reckon mostly depending on the sun.
There are many 'opening' threads here over the years with this situation.

I am looking for a chemical/math answer on whether FC level can be dropped after passing SLAM CC & OCLT tests.
Surely someone has tried this.
If you pass OCLT & CC tests many days in a row, why keep SLAM FC level ?

BTW, a FC level of 20 is not easy on the eyes.
seems to me if you are passing the OCL test it shouldn't take all that much extra chlorine to MAINTAIN the reading. if it is really sucking down a lot of cholrine to maintain the SLAM level, maybe it isn't actually passing the overnight loss test???
 
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Teald024

TFP Guide
As you can see in the threads, we are regularly going ~10 days, just waiting for the water to clear.
Surely we shouldn't have to spend $200+ (& fight our neighbors) on liquid chlorine every year, especially for a salt pool.

Now, can you chem geniuses say that SLAM level of chlorine is actually not required after passing OCLT & CC tests?
If not, we can take it.
@Gx Why do you believe keeping SLAM level FC isn't necessary?
How much you spend on chemicals depends on much you use to clear the water and how big the pool is. Did it start as a swamp or a little cloudy? 8k or 32k gallons?
I can tell you many folks open to a clear pool and may not spend $200 all year when dosing with liquid chlorine alone without a SWG. You have to spend whatever it takes to clear the pool.

There are many here spending significant $$ and time on LC, several days after they have passed OCLT & CC SLAM tests.
The simple question is: Is this necessary?
The simple question is why are they spending significant $$ on LC if the pool is algae free? The sun will burn off 2-3 ppm of FC per day. That'll happen if you are at SLAM levels or at target / general maintenance levels. So if the pool is using more than that, then the chlorine is still fighting organics in the pool. This alone would justify staying at SLAM level FC.
Even if you don't see the green algae, it could still be in there. Remember that a pool doesn't go green in a day. It takes a couple of days and progresses from clear to cloudy to green. So while the pool is still cloudy during the SLAM process, there is no way of knowing if all the algae is dead and gone yet. It just happens to not be enough algae to be green. So the process says to stay at SLAM levels.
I can tell you a story. Usually in late September when the water and air is getting colder and the family isn't swimming every day in the AGP. The circulation pattern apparently had a dead spot so that every year I would get a visible patch on the floor the size of my palm. I could see the green algae there (the water wasn't "clear") but the bulk water would still be very clear. Just for the sake of checking, I did an OCLT 2 nights in a row. Passed the OCLT with flying colors (0 ppm loss) both nights and had 0 CC.
The SLAM process has 3 distinct and purposeful exit criteria for a reason. Once piece of the puzzle alone isn't enough. The OCLT isn't fool proof. You can still pass this test and still have issues. Same with CC's.


There are other negatives besides cost: swimming!?!, stores sold out of LC, can't measure/correct pH, ...

I don't know if it's dead algae. The pool is cloudy, extremely slowly improving. I am not the 1st with this issue.
Do we have a good chemical/math answer to whether SLAM chlorine level should be maintained after passing CC & OCLT tests?

Are we saying that the 'guarantee' of keeping FC at SLAM level a week+ after passing OCLT & CC tests (5 days in a row) outweighs all of the negatives?
If so, so be it.
But, let's suppose that a brother is using 5-7 gallons of LC per day, reckon mostly depending on the sun.
There are many 'opening' threads here over the years with this situation.
I don't see any down side to staying at SLAM levels for a few extra days. Instead of the sun burning off 2-3ppm, maybe it'll burn 3-5ppm. Hardly worth complaining over. Chemically, you can still swim with FC up to SLAM levels as long as you can clearly see the bottom and pH is within range. The caveat about seeing the bottom is a safety risk, and has nothing to do with chemical levels.

To be blunt, yes there are good reasons to maintain chlorine at SLAM levels even if we can't quantify them with chemistry or math equations or calculations. Sometimes the best answer is "why not, what is really saved by not keeping the levels high?" If the pool isn't using chlorine, then there is no cost to replace it. If the pool IS using chlorine, then you would be glad you kept FC at SLAM levels.

BTW, a FC level of 20 is not easy on the eyes.
BTW, stating this is meaningless without stating the CYA.
20ppm is just fine as long as CYA is above 50ppm. This is much less harsh than the 2-3ppm with no CYA, aka a public swimming pool.
 
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