# *Shallow end, being shocked when grabbing railing*

##### Well-known member
@gamerfan2004, I am not certain that is where it is. After I see some pictures I'll go back through some of your posts and look at where the differences in voltage were for different scenarios and see if there is anything common. I may not be of any help, but some of your current readings caused me concern.

#### JamesW

TFP Expert
@JamesW you will not have current flow at all without a difference in potential.
There is a difference in potential between the source of the current and the destination.

The current runs through the ground and it travels through everything in its path.

The bonding grid is just one of the paths that the current travels through.

Even if you have a perfect bonding grid, you will always have differences in potential depending on the amount of current and the resistance.

If you check the voltage at a pump breaker load terminals and at the pump switch line terminals, the voltage will be the same if the pump is off.

However, if the pump is on, there will be a voltage difference between the breaker and the switch due to voltage drop, which depends on the amperage and the resistance.

The same thing happens in a pipe with pressure and flow.

When the valve is off, the pressure will be the same in the pipe at both ends.

However, when the valve is open and water begins to flow, the pressure at both ends of the pipe will be different due to head loss.

#### mas985

TFP Expert
In a properly working circuit, all the current should be traveling through hot and neutral lines only and not bonded lines. Bonded lines should technically have 0 current and 0 voltage, otherwise, there is a fault. Only under fault conditions and high current could there be a voltage differential in a bonded line but not under normal conditions. Same is true for ground wires as well.

#### JamesW

TFP Expert
otherwise, there is a fault.
The person is being shocked.

So, there is definitely some sort of fault.

That's what they are trying to figure out.

#### mas985

TFP Expert
When we disconnect the ground wire to the house, the voltage drops to .0023V at the railing in the shallow end, and the shock goes away. This is the closest point to the pool motor from where the bonding begins.
Is this the green grounding wire from the breaker panel to the pump that you are disconnecting or the house grounding wire to the earthen metal rod?

Have you tried this?

Disconnect both the grounding wire and bonding wire from the pump. Then measure the voltage from the pump motor housing to the grounding wire. There should be no potential.

Measure the voltage difference between the bonding wire and the ground wire. Again, there should be no potential.

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#### JimMarshall

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
I don't know nearly enough about electrical to be part of this discussion, but have you tried removing the timer from the picture? like disconnect it entirely and just use that box as a junction box and see if you're still having the issue?

##### Well-known member
This is where I was headed. There could be a ground in the motor or some impressed voltage onto the case. The GFCI breaker could be faulty or something wrong with timer as well as previously mentioned.

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#### JamesW

TFP Expert
It might be an underground power wire from the power company leaking voltage into the ground.

At this point, we have no idea what the source is or the voltage or the current or where the current is ultimately going.

It might be 1 amp, 10 amps or 100 amps.

#### gamerfan2004

##### Well-known member
Thank you everyone for your input. The voltage is coming from someplace on the ground bar at the main panel in the house. When I disconnect the ground wire coming from the main panel, everything goes away. I took apart the timer, two GFCI's, and the pool light switch to verify it wasn't anything out there. Even with all of that disconnected, the ground coming from the main panel had voltage. I'm planning on lifting the neutral as suggested by @JamesW and @NowintersinAZ, hopefully soon.

When we solve this mystery, do I need to rip up my concrete to fix the bonding?

Is this the green grounding wire from the breaker panel to the pump that you are disconnecting or the house grounding wire to the earthen metal rod?

Have you tried this?

Disconnect both the grounding wire and bonding wire from the pump. Then measure the voltage from the pump motor housing to the grounding wire. There should be no potential.

Measure the voltage difference between the bonding wire and the ground wire. Again, there should be no potential.
I can certainly try this. I've been disconnecting the green grounding wire from the breaker panel.

#### Newdude

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
The voltage is coming from someplace on the ground bar at the main panel in the house. When I disconnect the ground wire coming from the main panel, everything goes away

Can you lift each wire one at a time to see which one it is ? Wouldn’t that greatly narrow down the search ?

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#### gamerfan2004

##### Well-known member
Remove each individual ground and neutral wire, one by one? I've already turned the main breaker off and the voltage was still there; hence lifting the neutral is the next logical step.

#### Newdude

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Remove each individual ground and neutral wire, one by one
Yes. Each individual wire that’s on the ground/nuetral bar that’s showing the voltage. In theory only one of them has the foreign voltage and BOOM. It’s the central AC. (Or whatevs)

#### gamerfan2004

##### Well-known member
Yes. Each individual wire that’s on the ground/nuetral bar that’s showing the voltage. In theory only one of them has the foreign voltage and BOOM. It’s the central AC. (Or whatevs)
I can certainly give this a go. Much appreciated

#### Newdude

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
If the bar remains hot as you test with each wire removed, It’s coming from outside like the CATV line.

#### JamesW

TFP Expert
Do you still have the oscilloscope?

Can you check the waveform and frequency each time?

Can you check the voltage and current in AC and DC?

#### gamerfan2004

##### Well-known member
Do you still have the oscilloscope?

Can you check the waveform and frequency each time?

Can you check the voltage and current in AC and DC?
Yup, still have it. Should I have it connected at the pool pump ground, or checking each neutral/ground at the panel?

#### Mike1162

Silver Supporter
the ground coming from the main panel had voltage
What was the meter connected between when finding this voltage.
I've been following this thread for awhile. It's like a great mystery novel.

gamerfan2004

#### JimMarshall

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
What was the meter connected between when finding this voltage.
I've been following this thread for awhile. It's like a great mystery novel.

gamerfan2004

#### gamerfan2004

##### Well-known member
What was the meter connected between when finding this voltage.
I've been following this thread for awhile. It's like a great mystery novel.
It's definitely playing out like a mystery novel

The meter was connected between the pump ground and the ground wire coming from the main breaker panel.

#### Newdude

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
When I disconnect the ground wire coming from the main panel, everything goes away.
My mind keeps coming back to this. To me it’s an outside problem. Remove the ground / MGN at the main ground rod. Test the wire to the house for voltage. (Should be none according to previous testing). Then test the ground rod itself for voltage. It should be hot according to previous trouble shooting. Then You narrow it down to whatever is using the main ground rod in common. Phones / CATV / water etc.

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