*Shallow end, being shocked when grabbing railing*

mas985

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One lead to the railing anchors and the other to the water. I tested the entire pool this way and it only spikes at the pool corner in the shallow end where the railing anchors are.
There may be a path to ground in that location.

Have you ever checked the pool for leaks?

Did you see them bonding the pool walls when the pool was built?
 

JamesW

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Mar 2, 2011
28,201
I agree that there is a bonding issue, but I do not agree that it is "only" a bonding issue.

In my opinion, there is excessive voltage and current in the ground.

However, it's probably unlikely that you will ever get the ground voltage/current fixed.

So, the best you can do is try to get the bonding grid to be as complete as possible and hope that the voltage isn't a problem.
 
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Newdude

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What about calling the local news and getting ‘7 on your side?’ Nothing like a little coverage that the power company doesn’t care it’s allowing a neighborhood to be shocked. It’s certainly not just you and it’s very likely worse somewhere nearby. They might change their tune and quickly.
 

duckcmmndr

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Yes, it's a vinyl liner. Based on your description and explanation of the bonding, this certainly makes sense.

This is a big question for everyone, Would you remove all of the current decking and redo all of the bonding?
Let me start by saying...I am glad that you are back and did not leave us hanging indefinitely. :)

You might not have to remove all the current decking. You might easily get away with cutting back 2' from the edge of the pool all the way around. You could pour back the 2' with a colored/stamped border so that it would look like it was done on purpose. This will give you access to bond the pool coping, walls, lights, railings, etc. You should be able to locate the wire running to the pump pad...if not, run a new one. If the current decking has rebar or mesh wire you could likely chip away and connect to it in several spots too.

Have you tested for voltage in the decking itself any distance from the pools edge?
 
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HeyEng

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What about calling the local news and getting ‘7 on your side?’ Nothing like a little coverage that the power company doesn’t care it’s allowing a neighborhood to be shocked. It’s certainly not just you and it’s very likely worse somewhere nearby. They might change their tune and quickly.
He might be SOL in that regard. He lives in Northern Delaware and the "local" stations are in Philly. In my previous years living in DE, I don't recall ANY loca DEl news from the Philly stations (unless it was significant news). If he was in the southern part of the state...then maybe, but the "Delmarva" stations probably have 35 viewers on a good night. ;)

Nonetheless, it can't hurt to try.
 
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gamerfan2004

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
There may be a path to ground in that location.

Have you ever checked the pool for leaks?

Did you see them bonding the pool walls when the pool was built?
At times some water may have gotten behind the liner from the pool about to overflow during some storms. Otherwise, no leaks. As for the bonding, yes, all of the pool walls were bonded when the pool was built.
What about calling the local news and getting ‘7 on your side?’
Oh how I would love to do, but since my neighbor isn't seeing the same issue then it's definitely localized to my property 😢. The PC did everything they were obligated to do, and I'm actually surprised that the engineering department gave me a call and allowed me to voice my concern. Oh, I forgot to mention that the engineer even sourced Mike Holt and bonding 🤣
Have you tested for voltage in the decking itself any distance from the pools edge?
Yes, the only voltage is seen around the steps near the railing anchors in the shallow end.
In my previous years living in DE
WAIT, WHAT!? You lived in Delaware!!! 🍻👏👍 Most people only drive through it or visit the beach 🤣 You're right about the news, it's only Philly and no one watches that anymore. Btw, you have an awesome backyard and pool.

I'm working on the voltage mapping now. I hope to post it before I go to bed.
 

gamerfan2004

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Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
THIS IS IT: THE VOLTAGE MAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Napoleon Dynamite Dance GIF



@Newdude @JamesW @HeyEng @mas985 @duckcmmndr @NowintersinAZ

 

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Newdude

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Oh how I would love to do, but since my neighbor isn't seeing the same issue then it's definitely localized to my property
It doesn’t matter. All you need is some neighborhood Karens to see the segment and FLIP that little Bethany might get shocked if she touches a tree. :ROFLMAO:

Let them go all ‘speak to the manager’ on your behalf.
 

ipfhliyl

Bronze Supporter
Jun 10, 2011
17
North Central Ohio, USA
As I said I am not a lineman and have not studied power distribution.

Power companies do not run neutrals in the grid. They are derived at the transformer feeding a business or house.

And as I stated and he confirms that the problem will manifest itself in circuits with neutrals. Here is another point to look at if his run to the pool is long the copper wires will act as a resistive load and you can get a voltage between the neutral and the EGC. This can be eliminated or reduce to with in code of a total of 5% for service drop and circuit length in the residence by running a bigger wire.

Yes industry can and do cause imbalance on the grid cause single phase brown outs or even total brown outs. I used to work in an area where an business was required to call the power company before turn on their equipment, because it drew such a large load that it effected the area around it.

You can track this with a chart recorder or even a volt meter with a min max function. Although you will only be watch one phase with a digital meter unless it has the ability to monitor two hots or your have two meters.
I've worked in electric power distribution engineering for decades and have a BS in electrical engineering. I've investigated stray voltage issues at dairy farms (cows are usually more sensitive than humans, and their milk production suffers in the presence of stray voltage). I'm reading thru this sequence of posts to see if there is anything I can add; however, it's a long list and I'm still only part-way thru!!

HOWEVER, I do have to chime in regarding neutrals. In North America, "distribution" systems DO RUN NEUTRALS. In the context of electric power distribution, three-phase power comes with a fourth wire. Single-phase uses two wires (services into homes are single-phase with three wires).

"The Grid" generally is used to refer to "transmission" systems that, indeed, do not include neutrals (since the bulk power system is generally large enough to remain relatively balanced and not need the neutral to carry the imbalance).

What's the difference? Think of the electric transmission system as analogous to freeways that run between cities, while distribution systems are analogous to a city's surface streets. All but VERY large industrial loads get their services from the distribution level (generally 15kV to 40kV class, 3 phase, compared to 69kV - 765kV for subtransmission and transmission).

I hope I read this in the posts I haven't gotten to yet, but it bears repeating ... DO NOT EVER "LIFT THE NEUTRAL" WHEN YOUR SERVICE IS ENERGIZED (or will be unexpectedly, as in during an outage). You are almost guaranteed to damage equipment at a minimum when the power is on or restored. Note that utilities will de-energize your service for you to work on your systems, most (but not all) without charge to you.

On a single-phase 120/240V service to a residence, the neutral defines the "midpoint" of the 240V supply and provides the two 120V "legs". Without the neutral reference, imbalance between the load on the 120V legs will make one leg rise and the other leg fall in voltage. Either option damages equipment (motors try to compensate low voltage by drawing more current and overheating, while electronics can be fried and resistive loads overheat with high voltage).

I need to take a break in reading the remaining posts before I can come back to check if there's anything else for me to add. I just don't want anyone else reading through this thread to be pulling the prior comments of "lifting the neutral" out of context and creating hazards for themselves!
 

gamerfan2004

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
DO NOT EVER "LIFT THE NEUTRAL" WHEN YOUR SERVICE IS ENERGIZED (or will be unexpectedly, as in during an outage). You are almost guaranteed to damage equipment at a minimum when the power is on or restored.
Welcome to the novel! Thank you for your expertise in this area, we all greatly appreciate your insight. Thinking about your statement, based on the actions taken: Main breaker off, solar off, meter removed, and lifting the neutral to my electrical panel; did this damage anything?
 

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gamerfan2004

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Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
gamerfan - What are your thoughts on correcting the bonding. Sounds like you should start with the light.
I'll fix the light when I drain the pool for the winter...still waiting on closing chemicals. It was attached before I pulled it up to check it. The light had consistent readings like the majority of the pool.

In the end, I'll need to rip up a decent amount of decking or all of it based on what we decide. Granted, this isn't a cheap venture so I'll need to plan accordingly. Removing the railing prevented any further shocks. I'll be monitoring the voltage over the winter and into the Spring.
 

mas985

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THIS IS IT: THE VOLTAGE MAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All of the voltages and currents around the house and pool are consistent with NEV. Also, the voltages around the pond are also consistent with low levels of NEV. There is nothing in that data that indicates to me a direct high voltage to ground fault. And as long as the NEV is low, the PC is not going to bother with it so the only solution is to fix the bonding problem.

But back to the pool and the hot spot in the water. Is there any return or fill line or skimmer or suction port or any other penetration of the liner in that location? Somehow, there is a different potential than the bond being introduced into the water near that location.
 

gamerfan2004

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
But back to the pool and the hot spot in the water. Is there any return or fill line or skimmer or suction port or any other penetration of the liner in that location? Somehow, there is a different potential than the bond being introduced into the water near that location.
It's just the steps. A return is located on the opposite side of the side in the corner. Granted, the edges need to be re-sealed around the steps and the concrete. The aluminum anchors have severe corrosion as well.
 

Mike1162

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Jun 13, 2015
1,103
N Tonawanda, NY
In the end, I'll need to rip up a decent amount of decking or all of it based on what we decide. Granted, this isn't a cheap venture so I'll need to plan accordingly. Removing the railing prevented any further shocks. I'll be monitoring the voltage over the winter and into the Spring.
Hopefully it won't come to that.

Here's a couple thoughts for discussion. Use a circular saw with proper abrasive blade and cut a shallow groove in the concrete next to the railing anchors. Drill & tap a hole in the top of the anchors to connect a new bonding wire to each of the anchors. Connect the other end of the bonding wire to the pump motor along with the original bonding wire. Fill the groove with mortar or caulk. If the groove is close enough to the anchors then the anchor caps will hide where the wire comes up from the groove to the anchors. If this isn't a terrible idea then try running a temporary wire between the anchors & pump to see if cures the problem. No sense in cutting into the deck before knowing if it works.
 

mas985

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Unless I am mistaken, the results of earlier testing confirmed that both the deck and the railing are properly bonded. Very low resistance to the bonding wire at the pump. So from my perspective, there should be no need to mess with any of that.

It's just the steps. A return is located on the opposite side of the side in the corner. Granted, the edges need to be re-sealed around the steps and the concrete. The aluminum anchors have severe corrosion as well.
Is the hot spot located directly over the steps or to the side of the steps? There must be some path of conductivity from that hot spot into the earth. A leak is a likely candidate.
 

Mike1162

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Jun 13, 2015
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N Tonawanda, NY
Unless I am mistaken, the results of earlier testing confirmed that both the deck and the railing are properly bonded. Very low resistance to the bonding wire at the pump. So from my perspective, there should be no need to mess with any of that.
IIRC he was getting voltage between the deck & railing.
 

gamerfan2004

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
Unless I am mistaken, the results of earlier testing confirmed that both the deck and the railing are properly bonded. Very low resistance to the bonding wire at the pump. So from my perspective, there should be no need to mess with any of that.


Is the hot spot located directly over the steps or to the side of the steps? There must be some path of conductivity from that hot spot into the earth. A leak is a likely candidate.
The hotspot is located at the shallow end railing anchors and the surrounding decking.
20210730_174034.jpg
@mas985 So you think the bonding is fine there and this issue may ultimately be a leak from the steps?
 

Rocket J Squirrel

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That is a return-to-deck 4-bend handrail. Provided with the distance between the anchors, Saftron can custom-build one (if necessary) the same shape that will fit the existing anchors and not require bonding. If you're getting shocked between the deck and the water without touching the rail, that's a different story.
 
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mas985

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@mas985 So you think the bonding is fine there and this issue may ultimately be a leak from the steps?
Yes, based upon the testing that you did, I believe the deck and railing bonding are ok. The decking concrete surface is likely to have a potential between the water and the railing since it is not an ideal conductor (i.e. it is more like dirt than metal with moderate resistance), especially when wet. If you were able to test directly to the rebar, my guess is that it would have very low resistance to the bonding point as well. But that is going to be difficult to measure directly.

Did you do a voltage measurement from the water hot spot to a screw driver in the ground (as far from the deck as you can)? If my theory is correct, that voltage should be lower than the voltage from the hot spot to the railing.

Those steps appear to be on top of the vinyl. How are they anchored?
 

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