*Shallow end, being shocked when grabbing railing*

HeyEng

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OP hasn't been around since 8/17
I hate that he hasn't posted any updates.
 

gamerfan2004

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
My deepest apologizes to the community. I have so much to read back on from August with the posts, and I still need to post the mapping info. After I took the mapping measurements, everything in life became insanely busy. Between work, school starting, getting my stuff back from storage and taking care of house projects. I'm very sorry everyone. I'm going to make it a point this weekend to read every post since my last one in August.

Also, I received a call from the engineering department at the PC. Basically, he said, your bonding has failed at your pool and needs to be fixed. He also said, based on all of the utilities that connect to your ground bar, "There will always be voltage". Long story short, I'm SOL for any further PC investigation.
 

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gamerfan2004

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
NEVER worry about us. (y)

we will keep ourselves amused until you return. There’s some good ones back there so enjoy them on Sunday !!
OMG, I just read through the posts! :LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:

The movie and the selecting the actors to play the parts!!! LMAO!

I'm taking a few minutes to answer some questions. Yes, there are birds and ducks swimming in the pond all the time.

This is the pole in question through multiple posts. The meter on the left is not being used (even though they have an external outlet available to use 🤣). This meter was from a house that was torn down to put the retention pond. This ground wire had 670mVAC on it. The ground wire next to it was from the Alpha box and this had 1VAC on it.
20210815_071300.jpg

The map will show all of the information and how our thoughts about the pond didn't provide the expected results. I need to get this map done so before bed I'll work on this to get it posted.

I saw @JamesW wanted me to dig a hole leading to the Earth's core 😁😂
@mas985 I love those maps!
 

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gamerfan2004

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
By the time I get my bonding fixed and concrete pad repaired, this very well may be one of the craziest / most posted threads on TFP 😎🍻

Oh, I was checking my pool light. Everything was fine until I was reinstalling it and the end of the ground wire broke off. The ground lug was seized and the wire only had a few wire strands connected. Now I need to repair that when I drain my pool for winterization. Hopefully, I don't fall in trying to do this 🤣
 
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mas985

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Also, I received a call from the engineering department at the PC. Basically, he said, your bonding has failed at your pool and needs to be fixed. He also said, based on all of the utilities that connect to your ground bar, "There will always be voltage". Long story short, I'm SOL for any further PC investigation.
I don't think the PC is wrong. Neutral to earth voltage (NEV) is generally always present to varying degrees. From what I understand, they really only get concerned if it gets to be more than about 8v which is more than enough to get a slight shock but not enough to harm you. There are many causes but I believe most NEV is due to the current imbalance in 3-phase power which travels over the neutral and I suspect if each person on this thread were to measure their own NEV, some if not most would be just as high as yours.


Neutral return currents through the ground[edit]​

In three phase four-wire ("wye") electrical power systems, when the load on the phases is not exactly equal, there is some current in the neutral conductor. Because both the primary and secondary of the distribution transformer are grounded, and the primary ground is grounded at more than one point, the earth forms a parallel return path for the neutral current, allowing part of the neutral current to continuously flow through the earth. This arrangement is partially responsible for stray voltage. [10]

The more I think about this issue, the more I believe it is not a fault anywhere but just a problem with the bonding and most likely the water bonding. Correct me if I am wrong but this is a vinyl pool correct? Vinyl and fiberglass pools are much harder to bond to the water because the surface is isolated. It would seem that somehow the pool water is at or near the local ground potential while the railing is at the home neutral potential.


Oh, I was checking my pool light. Everything was fine until I was reinstalling it and the end of the ground wire broke off. The ground lug was seized and the wire only had a few wire strands connected. Now I need to repair that when I drain my pool for winterization. Hopefully, I don't fall in trying to do this
That might be the reason that the water is at a different potential than the railing. The light bonding would help with the pool water bonding.
 

gamerfan2004

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
I don't think the PC is wrong. Neutral to earth voltage (NEV) is generally always present to varying degrees. From what I understand, they really only get concerned if it gets to be more than about 8v which is more than enough to get a slight shock but not enough to harm you. There are many causes but I believe most NEV is due to the current imbalance in 3-phase power which travels over the neutral and I suspect if each person on this thread were to measure their own NEV, some if not most would be just as high as yours.




The more I think about this issue, the more I believe it is not a fault anywhere but just a problem with the bonding and most likely the water bonding. Correct me if I am wrong but this is a vinyl pool correct? Vinyl and fiberglass pools are much harder to bond to the water because the surface is isolated. It would seem that somehow the pool water is at or near the local ground potential while the railing is at the home neutral potential.



That might be the reason that the water is at a different potential than the railing. The light bonding would help with the pool water bonding.
Yes, it's a vinyl liner. Based on your description and explanation of the bonding, this certainly makes sense.

This is a big question for everyone, Would you remove all of the current decking and redo all of the bonding?
 

mas985

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I don't think the issue is with the railing or the deck. I think the issue is with the water.

I would try fixing the light first to see if that helps at all.

Second, you might add one or two of these:

1632935159512.png
1632935009493.png
 

gamerfan2004

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
Can you replace the railing with a nonconductive one which doesn't need bonding? I have one of these that I installed myself.
This certainly can be a viable option. However, since the bonding has been compromised, will the issue expand or potentially lead to further issues if it's not fixed? Also, when the time comes to sell the house, can this be a liability?
 

gamerfan2004

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
I don't think the issue is with the railing or the deck. I think the issue is with the water.

I would try fixing the light first to see if that helps at all.

Second, you might add one or two of these:

View attachment 374935
View attachment 374931
The rest of the pool is fine when I test in different areas. If it is a bonding issue with the water, wouldn't the same voltage be everywhere I test? That is a nifty bonding solution. Would you add this to the filter/pump area?
 

mas985

TFP Expert
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May 3, 2007
14,729
Pleasanton, CA
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The rest of the pool is fine when I test in different areas. If it is a bonding issue with the water, wouldn't the same voltage be everywhere I test? That is a nifty bonding solution. Would you add this to the filter/pump area?
Exactly how are you testing it? One lead on the railing and the other in different parts of the water?
 

gamerfan2004

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2013
143
Newark, DE
Exactly how are you testing it? One lead on the railing and the other in different parts of the water?
One lead to the railing anchors and the other to the water. I tested the entire pool this way and it only spikes at the pool corner in the shallow end where the railing anchors are.

I've done the suggested tests with the screwdriver with the ground wire and also coming from the pump as well. The only spike is around the shallow end steps where the railing anchors are. This also has a residual effect with the bonding in the decking around the steps.
 
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