Riles Pool Renovation

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Riles_J

Riles_J

0
May 8, 2007
218
Nashville, TN
Well my renovation project has begun. I plan to do remove my decking, replace plumbing, add a new skimmer, pour a new equipment pad, and place new travertine coping and decking.

I have almost completed the demolition of the concrete. With no easy way to get to my pool area with equipment we had to do this one handful of concrete at a time. Now that was work, but I'm almost there. I was hoping to get some feedback on the best sequence of operations here. The water is in the pool, but due to a leak I can no longer run the pump. I guess I could for a short period if I fill it back up. I was planning to leave the water in the pool until next spring since I thought it would be better to just keep it in there so the bottom doesn't get damaged too bad. My plan was to do the following:

1 - Demo concrete (almost done)
2 - Excavate as needed to get proper depth for stone/sand/travertine
3 - Install new skimmer
4 - Install new plumbing and pour equipment pad
5 - Install new liner track
6 - Install new coping
7 - Pour new footers for ladders, diving board, slide (plan to have top of footer just under travertine
8 - Install new travertine decking
9 - Install new liner

Any thoughts on this sequence?

I questioned how to test the plumbing. I guess I will have to set it up for an air pressure test. Anyone have some instructions on how to perform that? I assume I will have to plumb in some sort of valve to fill with air and then something install a gauge and then seal off all openings.

Another question I had was about grounding. Before the grounding was connected to the steel reinforcing. I will not have that on my new deck so I am thinking that I could connect some copper to the slide, ladders (I have two) and the diving board supports would be sufficient. Any help on these specifics? Ground rod size and number? Copper wire size? Should I loop around entire pool? Should I connect to the steel bond beam?

And finally, I was getting some water under my previous liner in the shallow end which always puzzled me. It didn't seem to correspond to rain events and the pool sits behind a large retaining wall and water table is certainly not an issue. I am thinking there must just be some perched water getting into a low spot under the liner and there must be some clay that is keeping it from absorbing into the ground. Still this doesn't seem to make sense to me due to the fact that it sits way up high in relation to the back yard. Another thought I had was maybe there is a leak in the plumbing for my return the water is in somewhat close proximity to the return and even though the water is slowly seeping into the ground is keeps getting recharged by the leak. I am hoping I don't have to trench for some ellaborate underdrain around the perimeter. Any ideas?

I'm sure I will have many more questions, and I appreciate in advance any help.

Regards,

Riles
 
Water under the liner I can't help with.

I do have some thoughts on your electrical questions. You wrote:

Another question I had was about grounding. Before the grounding was connected to the steel reinforcing. I will not have that on my new deck so I am thinking that I could connect some copper to the slide, ladders (I have two) and the diving board supports would be sufficient. Any help on these specifics? Ground rod size and number? Copper wire size? Should I loop around entire pool? Should I connect to the steel bond beam?

What you are talking about is Bonding, not grounding. Bonding equalizes the electrical potential of all conductors related to the pool. Even though you won't have a concrete deck, you still need a metal mesh under your pavers within three feet of the deck, it can be a rebar mesh. That has to be connected to the metal frame of the pool by #8 AWG bare copper wire which has to be connected to the metal frame of the pool in four places. You don't have to conect to a grounding rod or to the grounding wire for your electrical system. I wouldn't, it may create other issues. All metal within ten feet of the pool or associated with the pool (heater and pump) must also be connected to this bonding grid. While technically you don't need to run #8 totally around the pool that is generally simpler. The connections are not simple wire nuts, connections must be listed pressure connectors or welded. Look for "Bonding Fittings."

If you get a building permit and require inspections, some of these rules are subject to interpretation. The inspector may require # 8 all around the pool for example or he may require different fittings.


You should read and understand the rules before you start. A good explanation is here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 3540,d.cGE


If you have questions come back and ask.
 
Question. Are there any issues with draining my pool and leaving it empty through the winter since I won't be installing a new liner until next spring? I understand the water table issue and having pools pop out of the ground, but my pool is behind a retaining wall and well above any water table so that risk is very minimal. Any other issues? I was wondering if the water helped keep the bottom in better condition thus requiring less touch up work there, but I have a green mess right now that is going to get greener real quick. I guess my options are drain it down real low and put bleach in to keep the green/mosquito breeding at bay or drain the entire thing and be done with it. Any thoughts?

Riles
 
As far as bonding the pool you can use copper split bolts to attach the number 8 wire. I get all my bonding supplies from Home Depot. Here in Cincinnati I work in six different counties between Ohio and Kentucky and different county inspectors interpit the code differently so I would call your building dept and ask the inspector how they want it done. Where I work if you are rehabbing an existing pool you do not need a building permit but you do need an electrical permit. You will also need bonding lugs to attach your ladder and handrail cups to the pool wall. If your pool has a light make sure to use a potting compound inside the light niche where your #8 wire attaches. 3M makes a potting kit for around 30 bucks and should be available at an electric supply.
 
Question: The suction port on my pool was installed too high. It is about 1/4 of the way up from the skimmer bottom. As a result the water level has to be high for my cleaner not to take in air. While I am dropping a new liner and replacing the decking I assume it would be pretty easy to lower that. Can I just drill a new hole somewhere else, at least 3-4 inches lower than the current one? I guess I could just plate the existing hole. You would still be able to see a depression where is the existing hole is but that shouldn't bother me. Any problems with this idea or is there a better way about this?

Riles
 
A water pressure test is much easier to plumb and set up. A simple manifold with a gauge and a hose thread adapter is really all you need.

Crank it up to a little above normal operating pressure, turn the valve off and watch the gauge, a small pressure drop is most likely nothing to worry about as it is probly a plug leaking.
 
If anyone has any comments on my question above about redrilling a new suction port I would appreciate it.

I have also removed all of the concrete (I promise I will post some pictures soon) and some of the steel walls are rusted on top. I don't think it is a big issue but I was planning to just take a wire brush to it to remove as much as I could. Since I will be mortaring my coping to this steel is there anything additional I should do to prep the steel or treat the rust before installing the coping?

Thanks,
Riles
 

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If anyone has any comments on my question above about redrilling a new suction port I would appreciate it.
Click to expand...
If I understand, what you're proposing seems easy-peasy (it always seems like that when you are personally not doing the work :mrgreen: )

I assume metal sidewalls? A riveted piece of metal over the existing hole seems like a good patch. I think I would put the patch on the outside of the pool wall and then level the inside part out with some 2-part epoxy. The water pressure should hold it snugly in place if it ever tried to let go and I think would make your patch almost invisible.

When you cut the new hole, pay careful attention to how the old fitting was installed. The sequence of gaskets is often a bit complex and hard to understand unless you have a good example.

Strange that they put it there originally, huh.
 
Use a 3" hole saw to cut a hole for your new wall fitting, we cut holes all the time for return lines. Also consider an overflow line put a standard return fitting high on the wall and plumb it into your footer drain that way if you have a mesh safety cover when the pool fills over the winter it will drain and keep your pool at the proper level. You want the bottom of the fitting level with the middle of your skimmer
 
OK, drilling the new suction port seems like that should be pretty easy. Anyone have any thoughts on the rusty bond beam? A few spots are bad and will likely have trouble bonding to the new coping. With the fact that I am planning to do travertine coping I worry that if a few pieces don't bond properly then someone putting weight on those pieces just pry them loose. It is not like I have the integral concrete slab that isn't going anywhere. Hmmm this one has me puzzled.
 
For the rust, you can paint the rusted areas with a product that encapsulates it. The best place for such products is an autobody supply. They have some pretty amazing coatings available now. Another option is to grind it down and use a zinc rich paint, but the catalyzed coatings that they make for car body and frame restorations are much more effective.

Regarding the bonding, many jurisdictions only require a #8 copper wire embedded in the paver base material run in a continuous loop around the pool 3 ft. from the water. The ladder, diving board, hand rails, etc. all need to be connected to this bond wire. For steel wall panel pool, the wire also needs to be connected to the pool walls. Typically the 4 corners is sufficient. Also, any metal fencing within a certain distance of the water needs to be bonded. If you have a light niche, you need a bond wire connected to the outside of the niche and you also need one on the inside of the niche that is run in the conduit with the power feed. The one inside needs to be an insulated #8 copper wire and it needs to be potted in an underwater epoxy where it connects to the bonding lug in the niche. This wire is there to cancel out any potential eddy currents that may be generated by the current flowing through the feed to the light.

As for the water under the liner, you may find a good indication of the source when you pull the liner. If you can't find anything but you can easily run a drain line to daylight near the pool, it might not be a bad idea to do so while the liner is out.
 
Progress has been slow, but I have completed excavating to allow me to install 6-8 inches of gravel around the pool for the new deck. I have pounded off and scrubbed/sanded all of the rust on the bond beam and sprayed with a cold galvanizing spray. A couple of spots were really bad and I am considering installing some new steel in some fashion to beef up the severly corroded steel. It is only a few sections and if anyone has any ideas I am all ears. I was thinking of just trying to attach a thin section of good steel under the bond beam and attaching at some sound points.

I have noticed a few sections on the walls that are corroded as well. I plan to do the same with those sections when I remove the liner and work on the inside next spring. For now I have removed the suction port in preparation to move that and, surprise/surprise, it is very corroded. I suspect to find the same around the skimmer. Would it be better to cut new holes for the skimmer/suction and just put a piece of new steel over the existing holes?

Getting ready to start installing new pipe and minimal equipment upgrades as I have to keep costs down. I plan to install a new SWG and reuse my pump/sand filter. My multiport valve works but does not rotate very well. I was considering replacing that, but maybe I can just get by with a new spider gasket and hopefully that will do the trick.

Riles
 
While I'm not good at working with steel, it makes perfect sense to me to add new steel whenever possible, especially around the penetrations like the skimmer, returns, etc.

Your multiport should be pretty easily repairable. Opening it and inspecting the spider gasket is the first step. All the parts in the multiport are replaceable so you should be able to make it virtually new, if needed.
 
Slowly but surely things are coming along. New plumbing is in, with the exception of new skimmer. Looking at moving on to installing foundation for diving board and ladders. Question: When I removed my two ladders they did not have any sort of anchor installed. They just have a hole in the bottom of the stainless tube that had a piece of rebar stuck through and then of course some copper rods were installed around it with some bonding wire attached. My question is can I reinstall this in a simlar fashion? I am going back with sandset dry pavers so I was planning to pour concrete footer under the paver level and inserting the existing ladders into it. I can't really find any information on how big of a slab I need to hold the ladder and I wasn't sure if I needed the anchors. Anyone?

Thanks,
Riles
 
The renovation is going pretty good after hitting a few snags of course. Broke the pool light right before I was planning to drop the liner so I had to order and install a new and I was able to drop the new liner last weekend and filled it up. Things went pretty well with the liner install, but I have a leak. I went out and bought a little leak detection liquid and checked the penetrations and it appears that I am having trouble getting the skimmer to seal. It is a new skimmer that I replaced with the renovation (Hayward Autoskim 1084). I repaired the metal hole that the skimmer goes into as well. It looked great, but my understanding of the directions are that the cardboard gasket goes on top of the liner, between the liner and faceplate. That is what I did but it still is leaking in behind the faceplate. I was a bit confused as some directions looked like they had two gaskets on the outside. My options are to remove faceplate and try again, maybe with another gasket or just try to use some silicone or something on the inside to seal it up. I would rather not rely on silicone, but I am a bit nervouse taking apart for fear of messing up my brand new liner. Any thoughts?

Riles
 

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