Tex,
I'm still betting on an equalizer port..
Please let us know what you eventually find out..
Thanks,
Jim R.
Once it warms up a touch I may give it a try. A tad bit to cool in the pool to go in for something that isn't obviously broken right now
Question about Polaris cleaner
- Thread starter Texasnative
- Start date
Once it warms up a touch I may give it a try. A tad bit to cool in the pool to go in for something that isn't obviously broken right now
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,825
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Let's go from left to right, blue-handled valves 1, 2, 3. I agree, #1 should always be wide open. I can't explain why it wasn't. Frankly, that valve shouldn't even exist, as it will be one of the first to fail (ball valves are awful in that regard, and can't be repaired), and there's nothing it can do that the black-handled three-way valve can't accomplish. Same for #2. Redundant, useless and failure-prone.
The only reason for those valves to be there is if your equipment pad is lower than your pool's surface. So maybe that's the case, as I see them on all your pipes. It might have something to do with your negative edge, as in essence you have two pool levels, three if you count the spa. I digress.
BTW, the "flapper valve" is called a check valve, and it's purpose is to allow water to flow in only one direction. There is an arrow on its clear lid that indicates the direction, as does the black and white arrow label on that same pipe. The lid is clear just for this purpose, to determine when water is moving through the check. So...
You say in pool mode, that the flapper indicates water is flowing, and that you have water spilling over from the spa to the pool. In spa mode, no spillover and water circulates only through the spa. The latter is normal, the former is not. Your pool should have three modes:
- pool mode (no spillover),
- spa mode (no spillover), and
- spillover mode.
It sounds like you have no true pool-only mode, which is why I asked about it. Spillover mode should be a function of your automation, selectable when you want it (and/or schedulable), and not on full-time whenever in pool mode. The reason you're getting spillover when in pool-only mode, is because valve #3 is wide open.
There's nothing particularly harmful about constant spillover. Sometimes that can contribute to rising pH. And sometimes people don't want to listen to their spillover, and then just want it nice and quiet. Which is why it should be selectable by automation, not necessarily on all the time.
So if you'd like to have those three different modes, you need to shut valve #3 and make sure your automation is setup to give you spillover mode.
Now, why would that valve be there? Well, it's to allow a trickle of water to flow from the spa to the pool, even when in pool-only mode. That's to allow some water to always be moving between the two bodies, to keep the chlorinated pool water circulating through the spa, to keep it chlorinated. This is useful when you don't use full spillover rarely or ever, or don't use the spa much or ever. You either have to have your automation schedule some spillover each day, like 1/2 hour or so, or you use this crossover pipe to run a small amount of flow between the two bodies, all day long.
Either way is fine, and it's nice your setup gives you all the options. I called this to your attention so that you could choose the options that work best for you. And to point out that the crossover valve is not usually wide open like that, keeping the spa spilling over fully when in pool mode, whether you want it to or not.
The only reason for those valves to be there is if your equipment pad is lower than your pool's surface. So maybe that's the case, as I see them on all your pipes. It might have something to do with your negative edge, as in essence you have two pool levels, three if you count the spa. I digress.
BTW, the "flapper valve" is called a check valve, and it's purpose is to allow water to flow in only one direction. There is an arrow on its clear lid that indicates the direction, as does the black and white arrow label on that same pipe. The lid is clear just for this purpose, to determine when water is moving through the check. So...
You say in pool mode, that the flapper indicates water is flowing, and that you have water spilling over from the spa to the pool. In spa mode, no spillover and water circulates only through the spa. The latter is normal, the former is not. Your pool should have three modes:
- pool mode (no spillover),
- spa mode (no spillover), and
- spillover mode.
It sounds like you have no true pool-only mode, which is why I asked about it. Spillover mode should be a function of your automation, selectable when you want it (and/or schedulable), and not on full-time whenever in pool mode. The reason you're getting spillover when in pool-only mode, is because valve #3 is wide open.
There's nothing particularly harmful about constant spillover. Sometimes that can contribute to rising pH. And sometimes people don't want to listen to their spillover, and then just want it nice and quiet. Which is why it should be selectable by automation, not necessarily on all the time.
So if you'd like to have those three different modes, you need to shut valve #3 and make sure your automation is setup to give you spillover mode.
Now, why would that valve be there? Well, it's to allow a trickle of water to flow from the spa to the pool, even when in pool-only mode. That's to allow some water to always be moving between the two bodies, to keep the chlorinated pool water circulating through the spa, to keep it chlorinated. This is useful when you don't use full spillover rarely or ever, or don't use the spa much or ever. You either have to have your automation schedule some spillover each day, like 1/2 hour or so, or you use this crossover pipe to run a small amount of flow between the two bodies, all day long.
Either way is fine, and it's nice your setup gives you all the options. I called this to your attention so that you could choose the options that work best for you. And to point out that the crossover valve is not usually wide open like that, keeping the spa spilling over fully when in pool mode, whether you want it to or not.
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Wow, lots of info here. Thanks! First the spillover isn't loud enough to even notice it so that doesn't bother me but I'm curious about how this third mode would even operate. Since the automation will only select between either spa only intake or pool intake pipes w/ spa mode also not allowing water to the pool return pipes, wouldn't this be a manual process w/ that 3rd ball valve? Or are you suggesting that 3rd ball valve would have to be barely open so it would divert the majority of the water back through the pool returns and only a small amount to the spa but that would ultimately cause the spa to trickle over? Doesn't seem like my equipment could handle this automatically unless I'm missing something. Next question and this has always stumped me, the pool heater. I know how spa mode works w/ the heater but with how things are currently setup if we ever fired up the pool heater wouldn't this heat the hot tub at the same time since water is going to the hot tub, then the overflow along with the pool returns? I'm never planning to use the pool heater but was curious if that would have been a normal way to heat the pool.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,825
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
In pool mode, both three-way valves go this way. In spa mode they both go that way. In spillover mode, one goes this way, the other that way. The suction-side three-way would be drawing from the pool, the return-side three-way would be sending water to the spa. That would cause the spa to spillover into the pool.
I can't tell you how to program your automation to give you the third mode, but others here can. Or it would be in the owner manual, probably available online. This is such a common setup that I can't imagine any pool automation controller without this capability.
If the person that originally setup the controller didn't program the spillover mode, then the only way to get it would be manually controlling valve #3, which would explain why you can't find it and why #3 was wide open. There's nothing wrong with leaving the setup as is, I'm just suggesting your controller can probably do this, and make the choice more convenient for you.
Yes, you have it right about the heater. Because you're in constant spillover mode (when not in spa mode), the heater would heat both bodies when not in spa mode. That's another scenario where having the automation handle the choice, rather than valve #3, is so you have remote control of the heater's destination: pool only, spa only, or both. Right now, your choices are spa only or both, unless you manually work valve #3.
I can't tell you how to program your automation to give you the third mode, but others here can. Or it would be in the owner manual, probably available online. This is such a common setup that I can't imagine any pool automation controller without this capability.
If the person that originally setup the controller didn't program the spillover mode, then the only way to get it would be manually controlling valve #3, which would explain why you can't find it and why #3 was wide open. There's nothing wrong with leaving the setup as is, I'm just suggesting your controller can probably do this, and make the choice more convenient for you.
Yes, you have it right about the heater. Because you're in constant spillover mode (when not in spa mode), the heater would heat both bodies when not in spa mode. That's another scenario where having the automation handle the choice, rather than valve #3, is so you have remote control of the heater's destination: pool only, spa only, or both. Right now, your choices are spa only or both, unless you manually work valve #3.
- May 3, 2014
- 58,276
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Jandy Aqualink RS - Further Reading
www.troublefreepool.com
Hmm, I may have misspoken earlier. Currently in "filter mode", i.e. spillover mode the valves are in the positions seen in the pictures. Spa mode reverses them both so possibly pool mode would be one one way and the other opposite? I'll look at the manual posted below. Looking at the plumbing I can't visualize how this would work and not either drain the spa or still spillover with the combination of valves and plumbing I've got but I might be missing something.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,825
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
For the purpose of this conversation, let's not call it filter mode. All three modes I described get filtered. And with your particular plumbing, they all get chlorinated, too (that's not always the case in some pools).
You're thinking of your current "non-spa" mode as spillover mode because the spa is spilling over. It's not. That is actually pool mode. The spa is spilling over because valve #3 is open. That's not what I mean by spillover mode.
So, the valve positions in the pictures would be pool mode. When they both reverse, that is spa mode. When only one is reversed (which you haven't seen yet), that is spillover mode. But because valve #3 is open, your pool mode is spilling over the spa, even though that is not the spillover mode I am referring to.
This diagram is very much like your setup. The pipe that valve #3 is on is called the "spa make-up."
You might print this out, maybe a few copies, and use a color marker or two to plot the course of the water in the different modes, with and without the spa make-up valve open. That might clarify things for you. I can see it in my head, but I couldn't when I first tried to wrap my head around pool plumbing (and I still get it wrong a lot!)...
You're thinking of your current "non-spa" mode as spillover mode because the spa is spilling over. It's not. That is actually pool mode. The spa is spilling over because valve #3 is open. That's not what I mean by spillover mode.
So, the valve positions in the pictures would be pool mode. When they both reverse, that is spa mode. When only one is reversed (which you haven't seen yet), that is spillover mode. But because valve #3 is open, your pool mode is spilling over the spa, even though that is not the spillover mode I am referring to.
This diagram is very much like your setup. The pipe that valve #3 is on is called the "spa make-up."
You might print this out, maybe a few copies, and use a color marker or two to plot the course of the water in the different modes, with and without the spa make-up valve open. That might clarify things for you. I can see it in my head, but I couldn't when I first tried to wrap my head around pool plumbing (and I still get it wrong a lot!)...
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- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,825
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
When the three-ways are opposite, they will either cause spillover or drain the spa. You would never use the latter, you would only program the former. And yes, you're right, with the current configuration, you can only achieve spa mode and your sudo-spillover mode. That is because valve #3 is wide open. If you close valve #3, you'll see your true spa mode and true pool mode, no spillover.
If you're feeling adventurous and are curious about spillover mode, you can do this with the pump running:
- Close valve #3. (Be sure you know what I mean by valve three. That's your spa-makeup valve.)
- Go into pool mode if you're not there already. The spillover should be off at this point.
- Locate a tiny switch underneath the three-way valve actuator on the return manifold (the one on the right). That is your actuator manual switch. It has three positions: on-off-on. Make note of its current position.
- Flip the switch all the way to the opposite position, don't stop in the middle.
You'll see the valve turn, and your spa will start to spillover. That is your true spillover mode.
Be sure to return the actuator manual switch to its original position when you're done playing.
With the makeup valve closed, you (or the automation controller) manipulate the two actuators to achieve the three modes.
You'll have to program the controller for this true spillover mode. Or it might already be, you just haven't yet found how to engage it. That should all be in the manual.
If you get all that going, you can then decide to use the makeup valve or not. If you regularly use your spillover mode (once you figure out how to turn it on), then you can safely leave the makeup valve closed. If you rarely use spillover, or rarely use the spa mode, then you should turn on the makeup valve, but not all the way, just a bit. That's how it is intended to be used by most pool/spa owners.
Or just leave everything as is. If you like the spillover running all the time, then leave it that way. Apparently the previous owner did just that.
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- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,825
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Sorry, one last detail. Because your current sudo-spillover mode (which is actually your pool mode) is also sending water to the pool, you haven't yet seen your spillover in full-on flow. Only some of the pump's flow is going over. If you try the manual switch experiment I gave you, you should see much more flow over the spillway, which you may or may not like better.
Maybe you like both spillover rates. OK, you can have that too. Get the true spillover mode working, and use that when you like. When the spillover mode is off, adjust the spa makeup valve to achieve just the amount of flow you like for your low flow "mello" spillover.
You'll still have three modes, selectable via your automation, but they'll be these:
- pool mode (with low flow spillover),
- spa mode (with no spillover), and
- spillover mode (with full flow spillover).
I know I'm throwing a lot at you. You'll get it, and then you'll look back and say "Ooooooh, that's what he was talking about!"
Maybe you like both spillover rates. OK, you can have that too. Get the true spillover mode working, and use that when you like. When the spillover mode is off, adjust the spa makeup valve to achieve just the amount of flow you like for your low flow "mello" spillover.
You'll still have three modes, selectable via your automation, but they'll be these:
- pool mode (with low flow spillover),
- spa mode (with no spillover), and
- spillover mode (with full flow spillover).
I know I'm throwing a lot at you. You'll get it, and then you'll look back and say "Ooooooh, that's what he was talking about!"
Alright, I think I get the idea now. By closing valve #3 (spa makeup), while in pool mode (filter mode on my screen), I'm going to send all water to the pool return jets for the first time I've seen. Then by manually adjusting the valve w/ the switch, it will change from sending all water to the pool to the spa instead for a true spillover, also something I've never seen since it has always been splitting water between spa/pool because of the makeup valve. Did I read that right?
I messed around w/ the aqualink settings earlier today and I'm going to have to do some deeper reading into how I would setup another mode/valve settings. I may give your manual option a try tomorrow and see what it looks like. I think the piece I was missing was cutting off the spa makeup to make this different than before. Thanks! (side note: god bless pools are more complicated than when I was growing up as a kid)
Well, one more thought. Couldn’t I achieve your manual test above just by closing the ball valve on the pool return while it is in pool mode (filter mode)? This would send all the water back through the spa and “overflow” right?
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,825
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Exactly right!
Yes, but... I wouldn't mess with those ball valves. Only the one on the spa makeup pipe.
All the stuff I gave you to try is harmless. When you move either of your three-way valves, water can still move through them. Just from or to another path. Of the four possibilities with the two three-way valves, only one combo could cause an issue, the one that would begin to drain your spa (if you happened to flip the wrong switch), which you could quickly and easily spot and correct. But the row of ball valves along the dirt, every one of them, have the ability to dead-head any one or your pumps if you move the wrong one at the wrong time. You'd either starve the inlet, or block the outlet, which could cause some real damage, in an instant.
The only reason you should ever move any of the blue-handled valves (except the spa makeup valve), is if you need to isolate the pool from the pad equipment. Typically this is done only if your pad is lower than the pool and you need to work on the pad equipment. And for that you'd turn off all the breakers so nothing could fire up inadvertently. Otherwise, you should never mess with them.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,825
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,825
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
By the way, you kinda stumbled on another reason to have a true pool mode (no spillover). With the spillover off, more flow will go to the pool returns, improving the pool's circulation. That might improve the pool clarity, and possibly the skimming action as well.
And as I mentioned before, the water from the spillway splashing into the pool can cause the pH to rise. (The negative edge might be doing that, too.) If you find yourself battling to keep the pH in check, running the spillover less can help.
And as I mentioned before, the water from the spillway splashing into the pool can cause the pH to rise. (The negative edge might be doing that, too.) If you find yourself battling to keep the pH in check, running the spillover less can help.
We currently have a pool guy servicing the pool. I’ve talked to him about our water balance and he hasn’t mentioned anything being far out of normal but I had the same thought about the negative edge. We don’t run it all day but have it cut on a few times a day to deal with the ridiculous wind we have at our house.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,825
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40