Pump/Plumbing/Solar Questions

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So started to do a little shopping I want to confirm something:
WFDS-3 = 3/4 HP Full rated
WFDS-24 = 1 HP Up rate
Are these identical (specs at Pentair are the same)? Maybe just a different sticker?

I thought they were the same and then found a site selling WFDS-3 for $550 and the WFDS-24 for $474 :shock: :!:

Wondering if I should pull the trigger on the -24 since that is $75 less than I have found the -3.

On a related note, anyone ever dealt with Nor Cal Pool Supply?
 
Yes, they are identical pumps. Except for the pricing. Its marketing magic.

Also, I forgot to mention that plumbing the solar right after the filter and check valve is a really good idea and can avoid any problems down the road so I would suggest doing at least that.
 
mas985 said:
Yes, they are identical pumps. Except for the pricing. Its marketing magic.

Also, I forgot to mention that plumbing the solar right after the filter and check valve is a really good idea and can avoid any problems down the road so I would suggest doing at least that.
Click to expand...

Those are certainly on the to do list:
Pump>Filter>Check Valve>Solar 3-way>(isolation valves on solar)>(release valve at high point)>(check valve on the solar return)>Heater/Bypass>Flow Switch&SWG Cell>Waterfall/return valves

Can you comment on the way the Pentair pumps install? Just buy a PVC male threaded fitting and call it good or add unions?

I am not sure if the 3-way valve I currently have on the solar will be re-usable after cutting it out. Alternatively, if I can leave it where it is (although it is really low) How can I tell if it is a "solar" valve, i.e. leaky? Can I take it apart and see if there is a hole in it or better to just buy a new "solar" valve?

Also, I have decided (I think) to remove the current pipes up through the roof of the house (since I could not think of a good way to seal around the pipe and yet keep the coupling close to the roof). I will seal up the holes and then I will route the pipes around the eave ... this will also allow me to have the solar inlet pipes lower on the roof and should then give me better drainage ... even if it is not of too big a concern down here. Of course doing this will add a couple of 90s to circuit.
 
Unions on pumps are really nice to have if you ever need to work on the pump so I would use them.

A solar valve will have a small hole so the water can drain out and yes you should be able to tell by taking it apart. However, if the valve is old, then it is probably worth replacing so you won't have to deal with plumbing after this for a long time.
 
Ok ... just a couple more valve questions :?

1. Looking at Jandy valves I see no mention of a solar version. Do they not make them? Or are they modified after the fact? Or should I be looking at a different manufacturer?

2. I was looking at the Jandy head loss plots and see minimal difference between the 1.5/2 and the 2/2.5 valves. Since I am probably using 2" pvc is there any reason to send the extra $ for the larger valve version?

3. You mentions using the Jandy flapper check valves ... I agree they are nice. Again looking at the loss plots I see the straight check has a loss of 1.5' @ 60 GPM and the 90 check has a loss of 2'. Would I be better off using the 90 deg check valve if it reduce fittings or does it not really matter?

4. Do all the 3-way valves typically turn 180 degrees? Seems like I could reduce head on my solar route if I feed the 3-way from 1 end and went straight to the solar or turned 90 to skip solar, but in that case I only need to turn the handle 90deg (and maybe in the opposite direction than normal). I can see that someone not in the know could accidentally close off all flow if they turn the wrong direction ... can stops be added?

Thanks for all your help :goodjob:
 
1. Pentair makes a solar valve. But you can modify a standard valve by just drilling a small hole in middle. Solar valves seem to leak a little anyway so if the pipe partially fills while it is off, it shouldn't be a big deal.

2. Yea, it's funny how that works out. I think the reason is because the internals are the same. Because you would need an extra coupler for the smaller valve, it might just be easier to use the bigger valve but that is up to you. In the big scheme of things, it probably won't matter much either way.

3. A 2" 90 will have about 0.35' of head loss at 60 GPM and when you add the glue joints, I suspect it will be a wash so whatever is easier for you.

4. They actually will turn 360 degrees depending on the valve. The Pentair valves do have mechanical stops that can be adjusted. You can configure the valve anyway that works for you.

Also, each valve and fitting has only a very small impact on head loss so I wouldn't really sweat the small stuff. The biggest impact you can make on head loss is to up size the pipe. For example, going from 2" to 2.5" will reduce the head loss in the pipe and fittings by over 50%.
 
Would the Pentair valves require a Pentair actuator or are they all pretty much interchangeable?

I see myself eventually with a Hayward Pro Logic to control these things and had previously had Jandy valves with Goldline actuators.

I think most of my pad is currently 2" while the pool runs are 1.5" ... would I see a "real" benefit to using 2.5" instead of 2" on the pad given that I have a single 1.5" suction line. Or are you really meaning for full pool setups?

Getting hard to try to plan exactly everything I will need before I rip the pad apart :-D
 
Yes the actuators are interchangable. In fact, I have a Goldline actuator on a Pentair solar valve.

The main purpose of my statement regarding plumbing size was to illustrate that it is much more important to properly size the plumbing rather than worry too much about the number of fittings. Based upon your setup, I would say that most of the head loss is somewhere in the pad plumbing. I'm not sure if it is in the heater or some bad fitting but there is a lot of head loss for that plumbing and pump. Fixing the plumbing and putting in a bypass for the heater should allow you to figure out what is going on.
 
jblauert,

When I installed my solar I got a lot of info fromhttp://h2otsun.com/. I didn't see in your plan was bypass and isolation valves like this. The isolation valves allow you to close off the panels and the bypass allows you to adjust the pressure to the panels if for some reason you need to reduce it. You can also bypass the solar completely by closing isolation valves and opening bypass valve.

I also put in temp gauges on the solar in and out as well as a flow meter, all installed later, not part of my initial install.
 
Thanks for the info.

Isolation valves are in the plan. The automated solar 3-way valve can be used as a bypass by not turning all the way if I wanted to reduce the flow through the panels (although not sure why I would do that as it reduces the heating efficiency).

Are the extra temp gauges and flow meter just for curiosities sake? Not sure why I would need them.
I will have water temp before the solar (pool temp), but not sure why I would need to know the temp after the panels.
And as far as the flow meter, from my reading here, seems like a good enough estimate can be had based on equipment and plumbing ... especially since a 100 gpm flow meter has an accuracy of +/- 10 gpm.
 

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Just re-looked at the website RocKKer recommended and wonder about a couple things in their diagrams.

1. I do not understand the need for the bypass ball valve if they just put the 3-way below the isolation valves. The only thing I can think of is that it is easier to adjust the ball valve for bypass (if needed) than to adjust the stops on the actuator. Personally with my pump and solar plan ... I do not think I will have too much flow going through the panels to need to worry about the bypass.

2. Why do they recommend the release valve at the bottom of the panels instead of at the top at the highest point? Seems like at the top would allow most of the air to go out the valve and not back to the pool. Only thing I can think of is concern about having enough pressure to close the valve at the top, but if that is the case you probably do not have enough flow anyway right?
 
1. Correct - The solar valve can be used as a bypass.
2. Correct - Although, the air exiting is not so much of an issue and it really doesn't mater if the air comes out the returns. The panels do have a bit of pressure loss so it is easier to have the VRV close before the panels vs after. This is also important when running a VS pump so you can reduce the RPM to a lower value. Either way it should work fine.
 
mas985 said:
2. Yea, it's funny how that works out. I think the reason is because the internals are the same. Because you would need an extra coupler for the smaller valve, it might just be easier to use the bigger valve but that is up to you. In the big scheme of things, it probably won't matter much either way.
.
Click to expand...

So to be certain:

On the 1.5/2" valves:
Does the 1.5" pipe slip inside and the 2" need a coupler?
OR
Does the 1.5" pipe need a coupler and the 2" slip over the outside?

Same method for the 2"/2.5" valves I assume.

Reason I ask is I thought I had seen where the pipe slipped over the valve, but that contradicts your recommendation of my going with the bigger valve to avoid the coupler with my 2" pipe.

EDIT: Also, I see Pentair are PVC or CPVC, while the Jandy appear to only be CPVC. Should the PVC be avoided from some reason or is the CPVC just overkill?
 
Well, again I think I answered my own question ... which was over simplified:

Pentair valves have the "small" pipe use a coupler and the "big" pipe slip over
Jandy valves have the "small" pipe slip in and the "big" pipe use a coupler

To me the "slip over" concept seems like if would add a sudden restriction where the "slip in" concept should open up.

Either way, using a coupler seems like the "smoothest" option, although may cost slightly more due to the fittings needed.

Looks like the Pentair "solar" valve is only available in 2/2.5, so I would need a coupler for my 2" pipe.
For Jandy, the 1.5/2 would require a coupler for 2" pipe, while it would slip into the 2/2.5 valve
 
No I don't think that is correct unless I am not understanding what you are saying. For both size valves the smaller pipe fits inside the valve and the larger pipe requires the coupler.

There are some insider fittings but those are fairly rare so pipe will normally go inside a fitting. This is because the outside of schedule 40 is a specified fixed diameter and always the same where as the inside is a nominal diameter as has some variation.
 
mas985 said:
No I don't think that is correct unless I am not understanding what you are saying. For both size valves the smaller pipe fits inside the valve and the larger pipe requires the coupler.

There are some insider fittings but those are fairly rare so pipe will normally go inside a fitting. This is because the outside of schedule 40 is a specified fixed diameter and always the same where as the inside is a nominal diameter as has some variation.
Click to expand...

Hmmm .... am I interpreting this wrong then from the Pentair Website:

263026 3-Way CPVC 2 in. (2-1/2 in. slip outside) 1 2
263027 2-Way CPVC 2 in. (2-1/2 in. slip outside) 1 2
263028 3-Way PVC 2 in. (2-1/2 in. slip outside) 1 2
263029 2-Way PVC 2 in. (2-1/2 in. slip outside) 1 2
263035 3-Way CPVC 1-1/2 in. (2 in. slip outside) 1 2
263036 2-Way CPVC 1-1/2 in. (2 in. slip outside) 1 2
263037 3-Way PVC 1-1/2 in. (2 in. slip outside) 1 2
263038 2-Way PVC 1-1/2 in. (2 in. slip outside) 1 2
263047 3-Way Solar Valve w/ drain-down, CPVC 2 in. (2-1/2 in. slip outside)
Click to expand...

Sure reads like the large pipe slips on the outside.
 
Yes you are interpreting it incorrectly and it does not mean the pipe slips over the valve. Again a pipe will almost never slip over a fitting. It isn't a good connection.

What they mean by a slip outside is that it uses a slip coupler for the valve which both the valve and pipe slip into.

EDIT - yes to your last post.
 
Any preferences for the various PVC ball valves out there?

I see Jandy makes some union and non-union ones ... any advantage over what I can find at the local big box stores?

I figure I will use one on my heater bypass and 2 on the solar isolation.

Or should I really consider Neverlube type shut-off valves (at like triple the price)?
 

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