Print peeling above water line

GSD_fanatic

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16x32 IG vinyl pool. New Latham liner installed end of season in 2016, so this is the 5th season in use. Shortly after opening the pool last month, I noticed an area that is a couple inches below the coping where the colored print is peeling. It's not at the waterline though. This is the only area showing this concern and is west facing. I contacted the installer who then submitted a claim to Latham. Claim was denied, with Latham stating fading is not covered. I absolutely disagree as this is not a fading issue...its peeling. IMO this is a defect and should be covered under their 5 yr full warranty without any prorated being involved.

I have since contacted Latham and waiting for a response. I'll attach a pic with the hopes that someone here might comment about whether it should be covered under Lathams warranty, But more importantly...what the cause might be?

Thanks!
Bob
 

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Newdude

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But more importantly...what the cause might be?
Hey GSD !! Long time no talk. Lol.

To me that edge is taking more sun / UV exposure causing the issue. I don’t see how much can be done about it without trying a more robust liner and that in itself can only be proved after the fact.

I’m sad for you but also would expect the manufacturer to pass blame several years later. Most would want monthly pool store tests to verify your chemistry to their standards this whole time. 6 months in you would have a much better case.
 
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JamesW

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Mar 2, 2011
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Possibly a cleaner climbing the wall and grinding away at the waterline?

Maybe a Low-E window reflecting the sun onto the liner?
 

GSD_fanatic

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LOL yeah its been awhile. Seems until I get a few posts under my belt, my posts are delayed from being shown. Understandable though.

While I somewhat agree with the UV exposure, why isn't the other west facing corner showing any signs. This liner is the SuperMax 27mil liner from Latham and from what I understood...top of the line. Even more so, why it happened in such a short time. The last liner(original) lasted 14 yrs and replaced due to fading. This one is clearly peeling. Not sure if you can see it enough...maybe I need to try to take a better pic.

Thanks for the reply.
 

GSD_fanatic

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Possibly a cleaner climbing the wall and grinding away at the waterline?

Maybe a Low-E window reflecting the sun onto the liner?
We've had the Aquabot in use since day one with the original liner, so seems odd to happen now.

While the pic from my intro thread shows pumpjacks in place...I'm replacing windows and siding...they were done when the old liner was still in place. The jacks are still in place due to needing a support for the walkplank for the upperwall around the LH side of the house.

Great suggestion about the reflection from LowE windows, which they are. I'll have to pay closer attention to reflections even though I've never noticed it anywhere. Anything specific I should look for during the day?
 
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JamesW

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GSD_fanatic

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Thanks for digging that thread up, interesting for sure and after reading it, now I wonder...

It reminded me of a buddy who built a new house a number of years ago and the vinyl siding bubbled/blistered on a wall perpendicular to the window causing the reflection. You'd swear someone took a torch or heat lamp to the siding.

Admittedly I initially blew off the thought of reflection being the cause since I never noticed anything excessive or stand out. But was I ever looking...no, not really, never had a reason to. Combine that with how bright it is back there...white fence, white stones and full sun...would I even notice any glare? I'm thinking no. I spent the afternoon mowing and started racking my brain trying to figure out what might have changed over the last few years. All these years since 2003 and never had anything like this show up. Then it dawned on me...the last couple years I didn't put any screens in the upstairs windows. At first I thought no way, the distance from the back of the house to the affected area of the liner is a good 35-40' and with second story windows, I still had doubts...that is until I read that thread above and saw the upstairs window was the cause. ~Wow~is all I can say/think!!

Tomorrow is supposed to be bright, sunny and hot. Perfect timing to monitor and see if I can prove or disprove a window is the cause. There's 4 upstairs, so not sure which one might be the cause. So what I'll do is go out there once every hour and check the liner area. I'll even grab my Fluke and shoot the temperature each time and keep a log. If a window reflection is cooking the liner, I'll see the temperature increase. I can even compare it to the corner across from it that isn't peeling.

Thanks again for the suggestion and the link to that thread. I now believe...without even checking yet...that the cause is going to be a window reflection. I'll post back the results tomorrow evening.
 
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JamesW

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You also have to remember that the sun changes its orientation continuously, so you might only get a few days where the alignment hits the right angle to create a problem.
 

GSD_fanatic

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Interesting, as I wasn't aware those minute changes would be enough to affect what I'm looking for.

Today must have been an off day...nothing odd noticed. Most of the morning both corners of the shallow end remained stable/no change, with the opposite corner from the problem area just slightly warmer until 3pm. So I started noting the temps from noon time up until 6pm. Both corners felt the same by hand and never saw any indication of a glare. I was out there most of the afternoon, so I'm confident if a glare was visible, I would have seen it.

The first column is the problem area corner. 2nd column is the opposite corner, same end of pool. 3rd column is center of the wall, opposite end of the pool (deep end) that i monitored just for a comparison.

water temp 84°
12pm- 90°.... 98°.... 108°
1pm- 90° .... 102° .... 112°
2pm- 90° .... 110° .... 120°
3pm- 120° ....120° .... 112°
4pm- 128° ....128° .... 110°
5pm- 127° .... 124° .... 97°
6pm- 121° .... 119° ....97°

Based on what you say, I'll consider today a normal day and keep the data for a baseline. Tomorrow is supposed to be similar, so I'll monitor it again. Weekend is out due to cloudy forecast with T storms and showers both days. If tomorrow doesn't reveal anything, I'll continue next week. I'm hoping I can eventually catch some oddity with the temperature to prove the cause.
 

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JamesW

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Mar 2, 2011
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128 degrees seems a little bit high but it might be normal in full sun.

It seems like the problem would be more evenly distributed if it was a problem with the material.

Maybe the area is getting hotter and the cleaner is also rubbing the area more and the combined effect is causing excessive wear?
 

GSD_fanatic

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In full sun, its brutal back there...ambient was 92° from 3 -4pm so I don't really think its unexpected. The concrete deck will burn your feet if you stand in place too long. I'll check and see what that deck reads tomorrow. I touched the liner surface where it read that high and could feel the warmth, but it didn't burn and I could leave my hand in place. Both corners read that high but yet only one corner is peeling. Might be my Fluke...when I first grabbed it the battery was dead. So I took a 9 volt from my multimeter and used that. Not sure how fresh that one is. I'll pick up a new one tomorrow.

I agree that if it was a material defect, I'd see it elsewhere which you don't. But that is what gave me the thought that maybe it was poor adhesion of the print in just that area. At this point I'm now more inclined to think along the lines of a reflection causing it as was suggested.

If the robot was doing it, why only in that corner and not the other that read just as hot?
 

JamesW

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Interesting, as I wasn't aware those minute changes would be enough to affect what I'm looking for.
It's like you see in the movies where a ray of sunlight goes through a hole and shines on a spot that reveals a secret but the ray only works on a specific day at a specific time.

 
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JamesW

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If the robot was doing it, why only in that corner and not the other that read just as hot?
Sometimes robots get stuck in one specific area for some reason.

The liner is made from different panels of vinyl. So, it's possible that the issue could be limited to a single panel if there is some sort of defect associated with the panel.

It's also possible that the liner might have a defect of some type in a specific section.

Probably going to be difficult to find a definitive answer.

Does the affected section feel different?

Maybe gummy or rough or something?
 

GSD_fanatic

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Maybe the area is getting hotter and the cleaner is also rubbing the area more and the combined effect is causing excessive wear?
I forgot to mention: I don't think I'd call it wear? since you can actually see lose lifting edges of the color. I'll try and get a better close up pic tomorrow or use zoom to try and show the affected area better.
 

JamesW

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Mar 2, 2011
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Maybe the liner had some sort of contamination when the print was being applied.

Maybe an employee has grease on their hands from lunch and then they pulled out the vinyl to load it into the printing machine and they got grease on the vinyl.

If the vinyl is not super clean, the ink won't adhere properly and it will have problems.
 
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GSD_fanatic

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Doesn't feel odd and nothing rough or gummy. You can feel the loose edges and possibly peel more off...not that I tried.
 
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GSD_fanatic

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Contamination is a real possibility and was what I was initially thinking. Problem is how would I prove it short of cutting out that section of liner and sending it to a lab...NOT! lol
 

GSD_fanatic

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Today followed a similar temperature range like yesterday, other than slightly lower max temp. Ambient only hit 90° per my phone and it was a hazy day. Not surprised considering dew point was mid 70s. I also set an outdoor thermometer against the fence directly behind the affected area so that it was west facing. It reached a max temp of 100° along with the white vinyl fence reading the same. I didn't bother to keep a log but did note that max temp reached was 124° for both corners of the pool liner from about 3:30 til 5. I last checked at 5:30 and they dropped to 121° and 123°, with the higher one being the affected corner. I forgot to check the concrete temp, but did check the siding temp on a west facing wall. I am using Certainteed Cedar Impressions for siding and it was 122° at 3:30. Everything seemed consistent to what I saw yesterday other than no 128° today. I did put new battery in my Fluke thermal gun though. At this point I'm fairly confident the readings are accurate. But like yesterday, no signs of any reflections in that corner.

On a brighter note, I did hear back from Latham and feel a bit more optimistic. My correspondence to them appears to have gotten their attention and they requested more info as well as any pictures I have. I know the PB who did the liner submitted the ones I sent him, but no idea what he told them. All I got from him was they denied the claim saying fading wasn't covered. Pfft...this isn't a fading problem.

I took a few more pics today trying to get a better close up. While doing this, I also ran my fingers over the affected area to see if I could raise the edges enough to show in the pics. That didn't do anything other than I could feel small pieces of print ball up on my fingers. Kind of a rubbery feel but too small to get a pic of. However on an even brighter note, I may have discovered something that proves my case even more. The ~peeling~ is only where the blue colored print is. If you notice in both pics, the diamond is not peeling, its still intact. But on both sides of the top point of the diamond, you can clearly see the blue print stops peeling just before the diamonds edge. If it was a chemical problem why is the diamond still intact. Same goes for the possibility of it being caused by a reflection or the robot.

Note- first pic is what I posted in my OP so you can compare it to the zoomed in pic
 

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JamesW

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Mar 2, 2011
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All of the evidence points to a defect in the liner material or workmanship, in my opinion.

Maybe there are some local conditions that are more aggressive than normal causing the problem to accelerate, but it is hard to tell for sure.

What would be an acceptable resolution in your opinion?
 

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