Pool Equipment question

h00pla85

Member
Jul 2, 2020
14
Ontario Canada
Hello everyone,

I hired a contractor to install a pool. He is just starting to install the equipment but reading over the manuals I am starting to worry that he might not know what he is doing.

The pool is rectangle 20'x40' with a 8ft deep end

This is the equipment that he is installing
Titan Ti4 heat pump
Jandy CV580
Aquarite Salt water system
Hayward super pump 700 expert line 1.5hp
3 - 48" Zodiac sheer descent waterfalls Fiberfall

Equipment is at the same grade as the pool and is separated by a 6ft walk way.

The electrician who ran power to the equipment is questioning the size of the pump, but the pool guy said it was fine. The waterfalls suggest a min of .5gal per inch and not to exceed 40% of the pumps circulation, which it does.

Any help?
 
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ajw22

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TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
21,274
Northern NJ
Pool Size
35000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Welcome to TFP.

I tried to a search for the specifications of the Titan Ti4 water pump and came up empty. Do you have a link or information on the pump?

What size PVC pipes are being used?

Will you have a separate intake and filter for the waterfall pump?

Are you going to have automation to control your pool and waterfall?
 
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h00pla85

Member
Jul 2, 2020
14
Ontario Canada
Welcome to TFP.

I tried to a search for the specifications of the Titan Ti4 water pump and came up empty. Do you have a link or information on the pump?

What size PVC pipes are being used?

Will you have a separate intake and filter for the waterfall pump?

Are you going to have automation to control your pool and waterfall?
Thank you for the welcome.

Sorry that was a typo, the Titan Ti 4 is a heat pump, I also checked and they are 48" sheer descent.

He has 1.5" piping to each waterfall and to the skimmers, outlets, main drain. Where they join he has them at 2"

The waterfall is ran off the same pump as the rest of the pool, Hayward Super pump 700 expert.

No automation

Also, he put in a salt chlorinator for a 30,000 gal pool. But based on my size I should be closer to 35,000
 
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h00pla85

Member
Jul 2, 2020
14
Ontario Canada
He ran three 1.5" lines into a single 1.5" that enters the pump (2 skimmers and main drain)

It then goes to 2" through the equipment, up until it forks after the heat pump into two 1.5" lines

One of those lines (the top one) is for the waterfall which has the valve and then is split into three 1.5" lines - they are not looped at the waterfall either. The manufacturer recommends 48 gpm per waterfall with a minimum of 24 gpm (barely and throw)

The lower is to the 4 outlets in the pool that are paired to a single 1.5" line
 

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ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
21,274
Northern NJ
Pool Size
35000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
What is the status of the pool? Gunite done? Plaster done? Water in the pool?

It is a questionable if you will have sufficient flow to split the water five ways on the returns to the three waterfalls and the returns. It depends how you intend to run the pool and adjust the valves. You also don't have valves to adjust the flow to each waterfall individually.

I would have put in a separate waterfall pump that would allow you to more easily turn the waterfall on and off and also have valves to adjust the flow to each waterfall. I suspect it is late in the build to install that.

I think you have to see how the builders design works once you get the water flowing. Then you may need to make adjustments in the plumbing or equipment to get it working the way you expected.

Having automation would make it easier to tune up and operate your equipment. With ball valves instead of diverters automation will not do much for you.

2020-07-05_1954.png
 
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h00pla85

Member
Jul 2, 2020
14
Ontario Canada
Liner and water go in tomorrow. Too late to do anything really I guess.

I was under the impression that I would have to divert all water to the waterfall when in use.

The electrician is the one that brought it up. He has three 24" waterfalls and had a 2hp variable pump at his house and he said that even struggles to throw the water far enough with the other outlets running
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
21,274
Northern NJ
Pool Size
35000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Why don't you talk to your builder about changing the pump to a TriStar VS 3 HP pump? You will get a lot more flexibility in operation and efficiency and performance from that pump.
 
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jimmythegreek

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Aug 10, 2017
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Morris Cnty NJ
A 48" sheer should be plumbed with a 2" line. That pump will not have enough flow for 2 waterfalls plumbed like that, 3 will be water just falling straight down. Never gonna work like that. You are gonna need a seperate valve on each line to waterfalls to balance them and at least another pump. A water feature pump may have enough flow to make them decent and keep from having to rip alot of the plumbing out but the other issue is the supply water. All the above ground plumbing should be 2" none of the 1.5 supplies or returns should mate with 1.5 piping the manifold should be 2" only. Those ball valves should be eliminated too they are going to haunt you down the road when they fail and need to be cut out, use jandy or pentair. This guy has clearly never plumbed a pool with this many water features, and even without them his layout isnt great
 
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h00pla85

Member
Jul 2, 2020
14
Ontario Canada
You also may want to get a natural gas heater if you have available NG because where you are the heat pump will not work in the shoulder seasons.
I live out in the country and have everything running of electricity/solar. I didn't really want to look into a propane tank just to heat the pool
A 48" sheer should be plumbed with a 2" line. That pump will not have enough flow for 2 waterfalls plumbed like that, 3 will be water just falling straight down. Never gonna work like that. You are gonna need a seperate valve on each line to waterfalls to balance them and at least another pump. A water feature pump may have enough flow to make them decent and keep from having to rip alot of the plumbing out but the other issue is the supply water. All the above ground plumbing should be 2" none of the 1.5 supplies or returns should mate with 1.5 piping the manifold should be 2" only. Those ball valves should be eliminated too they are going to haunt you down the road when they fail and need to be cut out, use jandy or pentair. This guy has clearly never plumbed a pool with this many water features, and even without them his layout isnt great
Yeah I tried explaining that to him and he still thought it was fine until this morning when he hooked everything up and 2 of 3 were borderline and the 3rd one had essentially no water coming down.

I have been looking at a waterfall pump. I was wondering about diverting 2 of the 3 skimmers/main drain to the waterfall pump while in use (there are two skimmers, 1.5" lines), leaving the one to continue circulation and have it bypass the heater and the sand filter. I am not sure if that is a better option vs a single bigger variable speed pump. I really can't change any of the inground without a huge hassle.

Also, would it be better to upgrade the single lines above ground to 2.5" or is that not a common size for the pool equipment?
 
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ajw22

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TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
21,274
Northern NJ
Pool Size
35000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
You need to have a filter in the waterfall circuit or else they will get clogged with debris in time.

Page 12 of the installation manual says https://www.jandy.com/-/media/zodiac/global/downloads/h/h0347100.pdf?force=1

A Sheer Descent filter/strainer (p/n 3456), or equivalent, must be installed on the return side of the pump, between the pump and the waterfall. Refer to Figure 11. FILTER IS REQUIRED for separate pump installations, as large debris must not be allowed to enter the waterfall unit. For installations requiring up to 60 gallons (227 l) per minute, use one Sheer Descent filter/strainer. For higher water requirements, use two or more filters plumbed in parallel.
 
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h00pla85

Member
Jul 2, 2020
14
Ontario Canada
You need to have a filter in the waterfall circuit or else they will get clogged with debris in time.

Page 12 of the installation manual says https://www.jandy.com/-/media/zodiac/global/downloads/h/h0347100.pdf?force=1

A Sheer Descent filter/strainer (p/n 3456), or equivalent, must be installed on the return side of the pump, between the pump and the waterfall. Refer to Figure 11. FILTER IS REQUIRED for separate pump installations, as large debris must not be allowed to enter the waterfall unit. For installations requiring up to 60 gallons (227 l) per minute, use one Sheer Descent filter/strainer. For higher water requirements, use two or more filters plumbed in parallel.
Yes, I would need two.

Just trying to figure out if I am better off going this route and having a separate pump that I can have a skimmer and the main drain switched to when using the waterfall and just bypass the sand filter and heat pump or do what you initially said and just grab a 3hp TriStar VS pump.

All the above ground plumbing is being redone
 

ajw22

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TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
21,274
Northern NJ
Pool Size
35000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I am not sure the main drain alone will have enough flow to feed the waterfall pump.
 
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h00pla85

Member
Jul 2, 2020
14
Ontario Canada
I am not sure the main drain alone will have enough flow to feed the waterfall pump.
This is also my concern and why I would have thought I would need 2 minimum to be switched during usage.

Manual recommends 1GPM / 1" of water fall, so 144GPM

The minimum is 0.5GPM / 1" of waterfall, so 72 GPM minimum
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
21,274
Northern NJ
Pool Size
35000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Let’s loop @mas985 into this to see what he thinks your plumbing options are given what is in the ground.
 
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mas985

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May 3, 2007
13,825
Pleasanton, CA
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As far as I know, Canada also follows similar VGBA regulations so each 1.5" suction line should really only be carrying 38 GPM in order to limit velocity to below 6 ft/sec. Some areas allow it to go up to 8 ft/sec on the feed line (i.e. not the split) back to the pump for residential pools but that is still only 51 GPM per line. In order to feed all those waterfalls, you will need to use more than one suction line.

Did the PB use different pipe for the MD split or is it all 1.5" line? If he used all 1.5" line, that will be VGBA non-compliant.

How far is the pool from the pump?
 
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h00pla85

Member
Jul 2, 2020
14
Ontario Canada
As far as I know, Canada also follows similar VGBA regulations so each 1.5" suction line should really only be carrying 38 GPM in order to limit velocity to below 6 ft/sec. Some areas allow it to go up to 8 ft/sec on the feed line (i.e. not the split) back to the pump for residential pools but that is still only 51 GPM per line. In order to feed all those waterfalls, you will need to use more than one suction line.

Did the PB use different pipe for the MD split or is it all 1.5" line? If he used all 1.5" line, that will be VGBA non-compliant.

What feeds each of the three suction lines?

How far is the pool from the pump?
Sorry a little over my head. What is VGBA compliance?

All suction lines are 1.5" (2 skimmer, 1 main drain). Line to pump is 1.5". Line from pump > filter > heat pump is all 2". It is 2" until it splits into two 1.5" , one for waterfall (three 1.5" line) and one for return jets (4 total but only 2 1.5" lines above ground so they must have joined them underground)

Pump is about 10 ft from the edge of the pool, maybe 8" above the coping of the pool
 
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jimmythegreek

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In The Industry
Aug 10, 2017
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Morris Cnty NJ
How many drain lids are in the pool?

Theres no great way to fix this anive ground. The main drain will not be enough water on a single 1.5" line. A full size VS wont be enough for 12ft of sheers. You need a high volume pump. Best compromise is seperate the suction into 1 skimmer feeding the returns you have now. Then skimmer 2 amd main drains into waterfall pump out to 3 sheers. You need a 2way valve on each line for balance. Need 2" manifold minimum if the pump has 2.5" unions use bushings from 1.5 to 2.5. Gonna have to order 2.5 nobody really carries it. Whatever pump you use you need close to 150gpm amd get a small cartridge filter amd pipe that in just for the sheers