Pool and Landscape Wiring

[swing4terps]

Any pool/landscape electrical experts here that are familiar with code? I’m considering changes that will need to be made in the Spring and have some ideas that I would like to get confirmed before I bring someone in for a quote or contemplate doing it myself.

I’ll spare myself and everyone else a lengthy post on my details until I hear back that someone is interested in some technical talk

 

[Catanzaro]

Can you be a little more specific? Your title states "Pool" and then "Landscape" wiring. What exactly do you have now and what are you trying to accomplish? You are working with 2 different areas.

Any part of the pool that pertains to electrical components go through local codes (Recommend you call the township you live in). Regarding landscaping lighting, if you use low voltage that is plugged in directly to an outlet outside through a transformer and 10 gauge/12 gauge wiring, etc., there are no requirements. I have wires that have been underground for 18 years without issues. Bulbs last 4-5 years if you purchase quality bulbs.

 

[PoolGate]

I wired the circuit that controls the outlet for my low-voltage landscape wiring via an unused relay from my iAqualink control center. Now I can program and turn on/off the landscape lighting from my pool controller. I have plans to wire in a 3-way switch in reverse so I can bypass that setup since when my system is winterized (like it is now) I cannot turn the landscape lighting on.

 

[JohnT]

Certainly are a few people here who can and will give you good advice for what to expect and how to proceed, but we'd recommend you only use the information as guidance about the project and be sure to investigate local codes and other rules that might come into play.

Fire away!

 

[swing4terps]

Appreciate the replies. Here is my situation.

I have 10 line voltage (120V) landscape lights that surround my pool. They are pagoda lights that sit above junction boxes mounted on dual PVC conduit. They sit about 3-4 feet from the pool's edge, which I know does not meet today's code. They also are all damaged in some way. Falling over, some with broken conduit, exposed wires; a definite safety hazard. To top it off, the GFCI breaker they are wired to is not working properly. So, I have resolved to have all this corrected before the upcoming pool season.

Some things I know:

These lights (one 15A circuit) along with my pool light and pump (another 30A circuit) are wired to my main panel in my basement. My pool equipment is in my garage on the opposite side of the house; as far as possible from the panel. Five 12AWG THWN wires (two hot, two neutral, ground) run from the panel, through conduit in my basement to the exterior. Then there is an approximately 50 foot run underground until the first light in the series. Wiring continues underground to each light until the J-box behind the diving board, and then continues until the last light, then to a receptacle, then underground some more and into my garage to the equipment.

Two solutions I’ve considered:
1) Remove the lights altogether. Bury j-boxes at the site of each light. As long as buried at least 18 inches, that should meet code. I believe the 15A circuit for the lights has the GFCI protection for both circuits so it would have to be left on and replaced if not functioning. Otherwise that would be it.
2) Install a 300W low voltage pool transformer for the circuit that controls the lights. Bury j-boxes at the site of each light (>= 18in.) Run low voltage wire to new low voltage lamps that by code can be <5 feet from pool’s edge.

Questions/potential concerns about #2:
1) I’m not sure if code allows you to run low voltage and line voltage in the same conduit and j-box. The wires are all insulated for 600V, but I’m not an electrician, so I don’t know all the considerations. If they have to be separated, that probably eliminates #2 as an option.
2) I know there is voltage drop for low voltage lighting for longer runs. The distance from the exterior of my home, to the pool, all the way around the pool, to the garage, and to the switch that controls the lights in my garage is probably somewhere around 200 feet. This may be too long using 12AWG wiring.
3) Do transformers have to be installed outside?

Considerations:

First, the lights now give off a decent amount of light. It is borderline functional light for that area of my yard. I realize low voltage is mostly aesthetic and I’d have to decide if the look is that important to keep.

A sub-panel in the garage would be ideal and make things easier and runs shorter. I could run from the opposite direction and cap off the conduit after what is now the first light in the series. However, locating a sub-panel in my garage would involve tearing down walls or running another line from the street. Neither, I’m very much interested in.

This will be my 4th summer with this pool. It is in need of a restoration. New plaster, coping, tile, and ideally decking are on the horizon. I haven’t gotten the use out of it that would definitely warrant spending $15-20k to do all this. My largest investment was a new custom safety cover we purchased last year. I say all this because for this effort cost needs to be considered as whatever I do will likely be ripped up. Whether it’s new decking or filling in the whole pool.

Sorry for the lengthy post. Wanted to provide as much info as possible. Appreciate any answers or suggestions you have.

 

[todd.brock]

Ok- Im not an electrician, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night, lol.


I would suggest ditching line voltage lights that are in such a state of disrepair so close to the pool ESP without a functional GFCI breaker. That would make me nervous. But that’s just me.

I bought direct burial 12 ga to run along the side of my retaining wall and on other side of pool deck. I don’t think you need to put a LV connection in a Jbox. I have seen waterproof wire nuts used for custom installs that don’t use the spring loaded connector on the end of box store grade LV fixtures.

That , I think would eliminate the need to run LV and line voltage in the same conduit- which is not typically allowed by code.

My first thought is to ditch the buried conduit around the pool , but it sounds like you need it to supply the pool light and a convenience receptacle.

Your pool pump should be unaffected by all this. If you have a dedicated 15 amp circuit, put in a new GFCI breaker, wire in a recepticle where you want to add a LV transformer and look up volt lighting for really really nice fixtures. Run 12 ga LV to where you want the lights.

This should leave your pool light and convenience outlet protected as required as well as the LV LED lights.

I think the max run is generally about 100 ft for 12 ga. It depends on the number of fixtures, wattage, etc. I found some better transformers have a 15v tap to offset the length of run.

Here is a spreadsheet I found for calculating wattage of transformer.

http://www.wplawinc.com/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=60726


18x36 vinyl liner ,19k gallons, Hayward Sand Filter, Maxflo VS pump, Hayward VS Omni automation, Aquarite 900 SWCG, Rheem 115k Heat pump, Colorlogic LED, Dolphin M400 robot, TF-100/K-1766

 

[PoolGate]

Do you have a convenience outlet located in the pool area? If so, why not just plug your pool rated low voltage transformer to that, run your low voltage wire from that transformer around where you want the lights, then crimp on the low voltage lights where you want them?

 

[swing4terps]

Quick responses. Thank you!

A couple things:

I need to keep the line voltage that runs in conduit around the pool. Believe it or not, wiring for my pool pump actually runs all the way around the pool in this conduit. One hot is for the 30A circuit powering pool light and pump. The other hot is for the lights surrounding the pool and the convenience outlet.

I thought pool rated transformers needed to be used for low voltage lighting? I was considering the Intermatic PX300, which is hardwired, not plug-in. I don't have any great places outside to locate a transformer. If I could plug into the convenience outlet, I'd then have to build some type of mounting apparatus.

The location of the transformer would dictate whether I can stay anywhere close to a 100 foot run for the low voltage lighting. A couple transformers I've seen are "For Outdoor Use Only" but surely I could locate one in garage or basement, no? The thought of trenching a low voltage run does not sound as nice as just digging at each lamp site. But it sounds like if I want lighting that will be the only option.

At a minimum, the priority I guess is to get some j-boxes buried at each lamp location and ensure both circuits are properly protected.

 

[PoolGate]

Quick responses. Thank you!

A couple things:

I need to keep the line voltage that runs in conduit around the pool. Believe it or not, wiring for my pool pump actually runs all the way around the pool in this conduit. One hot is for the 30A circuit powering pool light and pump. The other hot is for the lights surrounding the pool and the convenience outlet.

I thought pool rated transformers needed to be used for low voltage lighting? I was considering the Intermatic PX300, which is hardwired, not plug-in. I don't have any great places outside to locate a transformer. If I could plug into the convenience outlet, I'd then have to build some type of mounting apparatus.

The location of the transformer would dictate whether I can stay anywhere close to a 100 foot run for the low voltage lighting. A couple transformers I've seen are "For Outdoor Use Only" but surely I could locate one in garage or basement, no? The thought of trenching a low voltage run does not sound as nice as just digging at each lamp site. But it sounds like if I want lighting that will be the only option.

At a minimum, the priority I guess is to get some j-boxes buried at each lamp location and ensure both circuits are properly protected.

You need to check out low-voltage more. It is WAY easier than you are thinking. You don't need to trench anything. Low voltage cable can sit right under mulch or plants or even just out in the open. The transformer I use is plugged into a convenience outlet (10' away from pool) and hidden by a fake rock. I have two runs from that transformer. One going right, one going left. All LED lights. If you go low voltage lighting you would just abandon all your existing lights.

Also want to add a disclaimer: I could not find any data pertaining to low voltage pool regulations but did find other people with the same setup that I wanted. I talked to a few electricians who did not see an issue with what I was doing.

 

[swing4terps]

Some further discoveries:

Pool rated transformers are only needed for underwater luminaires (pool light) which is something I hadn't considered changing to low voltage, but maybe will now.

The bigger problem: Code does not allow permanent burial of junction boxes. They must be accessible. Surface mount j-boxes would not meet code for pools, and also wouldn't be aesthetically pleasing.

AY YAY YAY! Might be time to call in an expert.

 

[PoolGate]

Some further discoveries:

Pool rated transformers are only needed for underwater luminaires (pool light) which is something I hadn't considered changing to low voltage, but maybe will now.

The bigger problem: Code does not allow permanent burial of junction boxes. They must be accessible. Surface mount j-boxes would not meet code for pools, and also wouldn't be aesthetically pleasing.

AY YAY YAY! Might be time to call in an expert.

I am still not seeing where your problem lies. Low voltage lights are designed for homeowners to install they take a couple hours at best with no real burying of any components. There are no junction boxes with low voltage the lights themselves have simple crimp connectors with vampire taps that do not need to be weatherized, buried or otherwise addressed at all.

 

[swing4terps]

I am still not seeing where your problem lies. Low voltage lights are designed for homeowners to install they take a couple hours at best with no real burying of any components. There are no junction boxes with low voltage the lights themselves have simple crimp connectors with vampire taps that do not need to be weatherized, buried or otherwise addressed at all.

Wiring for my pool light and pump runs in same conduit as wiring for landscape lights. I can’t run my pump off low voltage lol. Perhaps I didnt make this clear in previous posts but pump wiring is connected in a j-box that sits just below each lamp. If I remove lights, also need to remove j-boxes but have no easy way to reconnect wires needed for pump.

 

[PoolGate]

Wiring for my pool light and pump runs in same conduit as wiring for landscape lights. I can’t run my pump off low voltage lol. Perhaps I didnt make this clear in previous posts but pump wiring is connected in a j-box that sits just below each lamp. If I remove lights, also need to remove j-boxes but have no easy way to reconnect wires needed for pump.

Is the pump 220 volt? Are you saying the pump and lights share a common wire? Or just a common conduit? In any case, what happens to the existing lights isn't related to installing new low voltage lighting. The new lighting is totally independent of the existing wiring. All you need for that is an open 110 volt outlet anywhere around the pool. Nothing related to low voltage wiring needs to run in a conduit.

 

[swing4terps]

Is the pump 220 volt? Are you saying the pump and lights share a common wire? Or just a common conduit? In any case, what happens to the existing lights isn't related to installing new low voltage lighting. The new lighting is totally independent of the existing wiring. All you need for that is an open 110 volt outlet anywhere around the pool. Nothing related to low voltage wiring needs to run in a conduit.

I agree new low voltage lighting could be totally independent of existing wiring.

Pump is 120V and shares same conduit as landscape lights, not same wire though.

My #1 priority is to eliminate the safety hazard which means I have to deal with existing wiring in some fashion.

Here is a pic of a light I took the day we had the pool inspection 3 years ago. There are 10 of these; all in equal or worse shape.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yi6Quj5DHejX_a-4NvRh1TEw5hfldV7l/view?usp=drivesdk

 

[PoolGate]

I agree new low voltage lighting could be totally independent of existing wiring.

Pump is 120V and shares same conduit as landscape lights, not same wire though.

My #1 priority is to eliminate the safety hazard which means I have to deal with existing wiring in some fashion.

Here is a pic of a light I took the day we had the pool inspection 3 years ago. There are 10 of these; all in equal or worse shape.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yi6Quj5DHejX_a-4NvRh1TEw5hfldV7l/view?usp=drivesdk

Ok that makes it clearer! And not terribly attractive either. So when you open that electrical box, are you saying you also see the pump wire? If so then yeah you have a problem. Solution is probably to retrench a new conduit for the pump and abandon that whole mess. If not, then you could probably just cut off that conduit underground and cap it and abandon just the light wire.