Plumbing Schematic Review - Help?

[Newdude]

What are the issues with the build up of these chemicals?

As the CYA goes up, you need more FC to sanitize at the same level. At first, if you add more appropriately it is more expensive but there will come a time that the sun burns it off as fast as you add it and you won't be able to keep up.

Does the water become toxic?

Not toxic but unsanitary. Person to person transmission of viruses, bacteria, etc are the concern, although less prevelant in residential pools. Algae, although unsightly is harmless. It's like the canary in the coal mine and if it can grow, so can everything else. While you probably wont get sick from inadequate FC, you'll have algae if you don't maintain a proper FC per your CYA level. Nobody cares until the pool is green and then they spend 100s fixing it. We never let it get there in the first place.

So for my 25k pool, using pentair equipment, what equipment do you recommend for a SWG and cartridge?

I would want a clean and clear 520 cartridge filter and a IC60 SWG. The IC60 makes the same FC in less time than the IC40. SWGs have a finite life based on production so by running the unit less, it lasts longer. An IC60 is like buying an IC40 and an IC20. It has 50% more lifespan yet only costs about 20% more. The maths work in your favor. You have long, hot seasons in TX and will reach your hour limit (10k-ish) sooner than me in NY with less UV / daily FC demand. You want as large as you can go which is a 60k unit.

Does a SWG need the inital liquid chorline boost before its up and running?

Yes. They are like cruise control on your car. You can't just use then to get on the highway, but once you're at highway speed, they take over exceptionally. So you adjust the FC with LC like mashing the gas onto the highway, then let the SWG maintain the 65mph.

And my old neighbor has a chlorine pool now and a salt pool at his previous house and said it destroyed his grout and outdoor furniture

Salt doesn't evaporate. It didn't touch the outside furniture. If a few drops of cannonball splash did touch the furniture, it was 10% the salinity of a salt pool, versus 5% to 7% of a liquid chlorine pool and still not an issue. Poor quality materials weather from the elements, not the pool. Expensive furniture does not necessarily use quality materials.

 

[HermanTX]

So I don't need to have any special plumbing or valve other than the 3-way that I use for the spa/pool mode? If this is the case, does it just open a little bit to allow water to flow to the spa while it is returning to the pool? How do I regulate how much water returns to the spa to overflow it? I guess I didnt realize the 3 way valve will allow flow to both the pool and spa at the same time.

The 3-way valves rotate 180 degrees unless you cam them to open partially.
Pool Mode - intake 3-way valve is Open to pool suction and Closed to Spa Suction, the return 3-way valve is Open to pool returns and Closed to Spa returns/jets. The pool water only is circulated.

Spa Mode - intake 3-way valve is Closed to pool suction and Open to Spa Suction, the return 3-way valve is Closed to pool returns and Open to Spa returns/jets. The spa water only is circulated.

Spillover Mode - intake 3-way valve is Open to pool suction and Closed to Spa Suction, the return 3-way valve is Closed to pool returns and Open to Spa returns/jets. The pool water is circulated to the spa and the spa spillovers back into the pool.

Normally you would schedule your automation to move to Spillover Mode once or twice daily for 30 minutes each. This would keep your spa water properly sanitized.

 

[DavidArmenB]

Sorry, I meant liquid. Not tablets. But the other things are accurate. That was what I've been told by the bigger builders that quoted my pool. And my old neighbor has a chlorine pool now and a salt pool at his previous house and said it destroyed his grout and outdoor furniture. Another buddy has a salt pool now and it is eating his coping. It looks rough. I personally have zero experience as I've never owned a pool.

You have already received great replies to this inquiry but I would also like to add that those issues your neighbors experienced were not due to salt being in their pool. One of them had at least a major bonding issue I would guess.

All pools have salt. If you measure your non-salt water pool right now, you can get salt concentrations anywhere from 400ppm to over 1,000ppm. Even if you just filled your pool, you will likely have salt. For example, salt concentrations in my fill water in Santa Clarita, CA range from 400-600ppm. In this regard, all pools are salt water pools.

In order for the salt water chlorine generator (SWCG) to properly react the salt (NaCl) with water (H2O) via electrolysis to form chlorine gas (Cl2), it needs a slightly higher concentration of salt, somewhere around 3,000ppm. Some other byproducts are formed as well, such as hydrogen gas (H2) (this is why SWCG owners see tiny bubbles come out of their returns when the SWCG is operating). The chlorine gas very quickly dissolves into the water (becoming FC) but the hydrogen gas stays gaseous until it exits the water via the returns and enters the atmosphere.

At 3,000ppm concentration, the water is only 3-8 times what most non-salt water pools already have, and it is only about 8 to 10% the concentration of ocean water, which ranges from 30,000 to 35,000ppm. In other words, most people will not even be able to taste the salt in a salt water pool.

So you use liquid chlorine to start out and then start up the SWG? Does a SWG need the inital liquid chorline boost before its up and running?

You mention tabs... is CYA and issue using liquid chlorine also?

The reason I could not use my SWCG after I had my pool resurfaced was because I could not initially add salt to my pool because it is not recommended while the plaster is curing and I had just replaced my plaster so I had to wait 6-8 weeks for it to cure before I could increase the salt concentration and start up the SWCG. I used only liquid chlorine during that time.

Yes, using liquid chlorine to give the non-chlorinated water the initial boost of FC, and then using the SWCG to simply maintain that concentration, is what is the recommended best practice for members of this forum.
If you don’t have algae problems, nothing is stopping you from putting the SWCG into super-chlorinate (100% output) until your FC rises to the level you want before reducing SWCG output to maintain that level. However, this not only reduces the life of the SWCG by running it many hours when you can just pour some liquid chlorine, it is also pretty useless if you have any amount of algae because the algae will eat up the FC much quicker than the biggest SWCG’s can produce it. Liquid chlorine provides an instant increase in concentration, and the increase can be as high as you want, which is what is required to kill off algae and ensure they don’t come back.
For that and other reasons, it is best to always top up using liquid chlorine and then use the SWCG to maintain desired FC concentrations and then raising and lowering the output a few times a year as the seasons change and the FC burn-off increases/decreases.

When using liquid chlorine, CYA is not an issue at all since liquid chlorine contains nothing but 10% Sodium Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with the other 90% being water. This will chemically do nothing to your pool other than raising FC and salt concentrations. For a 25k Gallon pool, one gallon of (fresh) liquid chlorine will raise FC by 4.0ppm and salt by 6.6ppm.

 

[pjt]

Why do you recommend cartridge over sand/glass?

Simple plumbing, effective filtering, no backwashing, low restriction to flow, and very easy to clean. The maintenance is easy and infrequent; I rinse my filters once a year and do a deep clean every three years.

They say that salt is hard on the system and causes corrosion on all things metal anywhere near the pool. It also destroys travertine coping.

That was what I've been told by the bigger builders that quoted my pool.

That's misinformation (even though their intentions are good). Every chlorinated pool contains salt. Salt doesn't evaporate, so it doesn't deposit on things near the pool. The salinity of SWCG water is ~1/10th that of seawater. I can't taste the salt in my water. Poor quality materials will deteriorate regardless of water salinity. However, poor water chemistry (pH, etc.) and bad practices will deteriorate materials.

And my old neighbor has a chlorine pool now and a salt pool at his previous house and said it destroyed his grout and outdoor furniture. Another buddy has a salt pool now and it is eating his coping.

It's not due to the salinity of the pool water. We have a massive sample size of SWCG users on this forum. I don't think you'd find a single one that would abandon their SWCG in favor of a different chlorination method.

So for my 25k pool, using pentair equipment, what equipment do you recommend for a SWG and cartridge?

I'm planning to use Pentair's Intellicenter.

IC60 and CCP520. Get the IntelliCenter load center with built in SWCG transformer.

 

[Brant]

The 3-way valves rotate 180 degrees unless you cam them to open partially.
Pool Mode - intake 3-way valve is Open to pool suction and Closed to Spa Suction, the return 3-way valve is Open to pool returns and Closed to Spa returns/jets. The pool water only is circulated.

Spa Mode - intake 3-way valve is Closed to pool suction and Open to Spa Suction, the return 3-way valve is Closed to pool returns and Open to Spa returns/jets. The spa water only is circulated.

Spillover Mode - intake 3-way valve is Open to pool suction and Closed to Spa Suction, the return 3-way valve is Closed to pool returns and Open to Spa returns/jets. The pool water is circulated to the spa and the spa spillovers back into the pool.

Normally you would schedule your automation to move to Spillover Mode once or twice daily for 30 minutes each. This would keep your spa water properly sanitized.

OK, this is what I figured SPILLOVER mode meant. I'm still going to run a separate return line to my spa so I can run my spa overflow while I'm also returning water to the pool. This is why I added the automated valve on the schematic. I don't care if it costs a little extra to run a second return line to the spa. I'd rather have the ability to overflow my spa at any time (for as long as I want) without worrying about not circulating the water in the main pool body. I do understand that the spa will overflow into the pool and technically refresh the pool water but since the spa is located on one end of the pool, I would prefer to have the pool return eyeballs circulating water in the pool at the same time as I'm overflowing the spa. Texas gets HOT and I don't want the spa water sitting stagnant for 20+ hrs a day. I feel like it will probably grow algae faster that way. I should be able to automate that spa return line to open on a set schedule or on demand.

 

[Brant]

When using liquid chlorine, CYA is not an issue at all since liquid chlorine contains nothing but 10% Sodium Hypochlorite (NaOCl) with the other 90% being water. This will chemically do nothing to your pool other than raising FC and salt concentrations. For a 25k Gallon pool, one gallon of (fresh) liquid chlorine will raise FC by 4.0ppm and salt by 6.6ppm.

So, if liquid chlorine does not increase CYA, why do most on this forum still prefer salt over liquid chlorine? I'm changing my mind on using salt now but I'm still a little on the fence if there is little downside. Liquid chlorine seems pretty simple and the set-up is less expensive than purchasing a SWG. Are the long term cost of SWG cheaper than liquid Chl?

 

[Brant]

ALL,
I'm seriously blow away by how helpful and knowledgeable you guys have been! I wish I would've reached out sooner.

 

[HermanTX]

Liquid chlorine seems pretty simple and the set-up is less expensive than purchasing a SWG. Are the long term cost of SWG cheaper than liquid Chl?

I used tablets originally and had lots of algae issues over the years. I switched to LC based on my own research which was better (No CYA issues and reduced my algae issues as well as not having to drain my pool every year) and then started following TFP which made it even more clear and no algae whatsoever. I then moved to SWCG because of convenience and better control of FC and better control of costs. Think of a SWCG as a prepayment of chlorine. You have locked in your chlorine price for the next 4-7 years (depending on use) by using a SWCG. It just makes FC as required based on your settings.

 

[ajw22]

OK, this is what I figured SPILLOVER mode meant. I'm still going to run a separate return line to my spa so I can run my spa overflow while I'm also returning water to the pool. This is why I added the automated valve on the schematic. I don't care if it costs a little extra to run a second return line to the spa. I'd rather have the ability to overflow my spa at any time (for as long as I want) without worrying about not circulating the water in the main pool body. I do understand that the spa will overflow into the pool and technically refresh the pool water but since the spa is located on one end of the pool, I would prefer to have the pool return eyeballs circulating water in the pool at the same time as I'm overflowing the spa. Texas gets HOT and I don't want the spa water sitting stagnant for 20+ hrs a day. I feel like it will probably grow algae faster that way. I should be able to automate that spa return line to open on a set schedule or on demand.

Your thinking is wrong on continuously running the spa spillover. Put a diverter valve on the line so you can turn it off when you come around.

Continuously running the spa spillover will cause constantly rising pH and require more acid additions.

 

[Brant]

OK, so another question about the SWCG... I hear that it needs to be cleaned every 3 months and that the generator element needs to be replaced about every 3 years. Is this true? And if so, what does the maintenance entail?

 

[ajw22]

OK, so another question about the SWCG... I hear that it needs to be cleaned every 3 months and that the generator element needs to be replaced about every 3 years. Is this true? And if so, what does the maintenance entail?

No & no.

The cell is a consumable and the life of the cell depends on the size cell you buy. A small inexpensive cell will require more frequent replacement.

What you spend on cells you more then save on not buying chlorine in other forms and the convenience of generating chlorine on site.

If you keep your water chemistry following TFP recommendations you may never need to clean the cell.

Read SWG How It Works - Further Reading

 

[pjt]

why do most on this forum still prefer salt over liquid chlorine?

SWCG is significantly cheaper and massively more convenient. Instead of buying chlorine at the store, you generate it onsite at your equipment pad.

I hear that it needs to be cleaned every 3 months

Only if you don't manage your water chemistry. If you do take care of your chemistry, you should never need to clean the cell. Where are you hearing these things?

the generator element needs to be replaced about every 3 years

Most SWCGs are rated for 10,000 hours of generation. An IC60 will last you ~7 years.

what does the maintenance entail?

Nothing (if you properly manage your water chemistry).

 

[Newdude]

So, if liquid chlorine does not increase CYA, why do most on this forum still prefer salt over liquid chlorine?

My SWG will produce 1005.7 jugs worth of FC, in my backyard, with an occasional click of a button. That's a truckton of trips to Walmart saved. The sales tax alone for 1005 jugs is $500.03. Plus $5.65 a jug. And the lugging. And adult word NO.

 

[Brant]

Your thinking is wrong on continuously running the spa spillover. Put a diverter valve on the line so you can turn it off when you come around.

Continuously running the spa spillover will cause constantly rising pH and require more acid additions.

So we are clear. I did say I was putting an automated (diverter) valve on the spa return line so I can overflow it whenever I want or on a set schedule. I believe this is a good thing so I can set the amount of water I want to overflow and the times that I want it to overflow.

If I used SPILLOVER mode, and the 3-way valve opens to the spa, wouldn't 100% of the pump output then go directly to my spa or can I make it where the pump automatically adjusts its speed when the system switches to SPILLOVER so the pump GPM output is what I want delivered to the spa? For instance, if the system is in POOL mode and returning/circulating at ~45 gpm to the pool and then I switch it over to SPILLOVER mode, can I have it pre-automated to slow the pump down to only deliver what I need to overflow the spa (~30 gpm)? If the system programming will not do this, I believe it makes sense to have a separate return line with automated diverter valve going to the spa. That way I can control the flow (GPM) to the spa when I'm overflowing it.

If the system will automate the valve orientation and at the same time automatically adjust the pump speed between modes, than using SPILLOVER mode makes more sense than running a separate return line to the spa. Is this the case?

On the issue of pH...
It sounds like running the spa overflow all day is bad for the pool because it will raise pH? I assume this also means that water features (bubblers/waterfalls) are bad to use because they will also raise the pH. How much impact does running these things have on the pH? How do you counteract it? Muriatic acid? Something else? Is this a big deal or just notable and not that big of an issue?

 

[Brant]

Only if you don't manage your water chemistry. If you do take care of your chemistry, you should never need to clean the cell. Where are you hearing these things?

A few people that sell pool equipment. But most recently, a specialist at Leslies Pools. She sounded very knowledgeable.

 

[Brant]

I also live in an area with extremely hard water. I'm on well water in the TX hill country and our water is about as hard as water comes out of the ground. It's pretty insane. Should this influence my decision between SWCG vs LC?

 

[Newdude]

But most recently, a specialist at Leslies Pools. She sounded very knowledgeable.

My cell says *right on it* to acid clean it every 3 months. What does Pentair care that I didn't need to and it unnecessarily kils cell life? I'll be a customer again sooner.

We got nothing to sell you but goodwill. We'll steer you right.

 

[Brant]

My cell says *right on it* to acid clean it every 3 months. What does Pentair care that I didn't need to and it unnecessarily kils cell life? I'll be a customer again sooner.

We got nothing to sell you but goodwill. We'll steer you right.

So doing an acid clean on the cell actually shortens the life of it? Is that what you're saying?
I appreciate the help!

 

[Newdude]

So doing an acid clean on the cell actually shortens the life of it?

The acid strips the coating on the cell plates and when the coating is gone, the cell is dead.

I did what I was told by Pentair and the PB for years and my 1st cell spent 3.5 hours soaking in straight Muriatic Acid over its lifespan. No kidding it was a shorter one than it should have been.

The kicker is I never had a need to clean it. It was always spotless. We have less harsh ways to go about it if the need ever arises.

 

[Brant]

The more I read on this forum, the more questions I have.

How to install a dedicated suction and pressure line for manual cleaning/vacuuming?
If I wanted to have a manual suction and pressure line installed for cleaning, what does this look like? Pipe size, fitting type, placement? I assume these get plumbed just below the waterline? Is the suction just tee'd into the upstream side of the pump suction and pressure line is tee'd in downstream of the filter? I assume I would need to add divert valves on these lines?

The suction line seems obvious. You would hook a vacuum hose to it, right? What is the purpose of the pressure line???