Pipe size: Pentair Customer Service says it's fine - PB says no | Need Help

Jump to latest Follow Reply
S

Sparq79

Active member
Jun 14, 2021
26
Florida
Hi everyone,

Like many others, we invested one of our kid's college savings into a pool build during the pandemic :)
I've now got a hole in my yard and the pool builder is giving me grief about where I want my pool equipment to be placed.

I want to have the equipment about 60 feet from the skimmer and the PB is telling me it can't be more than 30 feet or "things won't work" or "the pump will be strained" or "insert whatever why else it won't work".

Quick context: the guy I'm dealing with used to be a car salesman and is an expert at tacking on extra $$$ for anything I've expressed I wanted (even if logically it would imply less labor or material...)

I don't know anything about pools or the plumbing outside of the stuff I've read here for the past 3 days. It's all very confusing. So after reading similar questions here I decided I call Pentair customer service since all equipment is Pentair. I spoke to one gentleman who sounded like was running some calculations (30-40 PSI, 160 GPM, 14K Gallons, etc) and he said what I wanted should be fine but before I could ask him to elaborate on those calculations the line got disconnected. I called back and got a different representative who didn't even do any calculations or ask too many questions and simply said "you should have no problems running anything under 100 feet with 2" pipe - we test all our equipment to 100 feet". That answer somehow doesn't really sound reliable especially if he didn't ask for a lot of the variables that could go into that equation. So here I am. Hoping you experts can arm me with what I need to go back to the PB.

My specs:
Pool is 14 x 29, 3.5 - 5.5 ft deep. There's a 7 x 7 spa in the corner (within) the pool.
They already have a 2" pipe connected to skimmer and what looks like 2.5" pipes hooked up to Spa and Pool drains.
Pool is ready for gunite at this point, so there's no equipment or other plumbing runs yet.

Equipment to be used:
  • Pentair IntelliChlor IC40 Salt Chlorine Generator
  • Pentair UltraTemp 120Q Electric Heater (127K BTU) - Almond Color
  • Pentair IntelliFlo VSF Variable/4-speed Pump
  • Pentair Filter Cartridge (Clean and clear - CC150)
Again, I want to run 60 feet from equipment to skimmer - there will be 2 90 degrees to get from pump to skimmer (plus the trap? to skimmer). To the pool main drain it would likely be around 87 ft with total of 3 90 degrees. There is also a drain in the spa. They told me I would have a "separate line" for the vacuum.

They have not provided me with a "plumbing plan" so I have no other details to share other than the above. My questions are:
  • With the equipment I have, will the 2" pipe work at 60 foot run without straining the pump too much, or
  • Should I ask for them to install larger pipe to ensure there's no problems, or
  • Is the PB correct and I need to move the equipment closer to avoid problems with our equipment and/or efficiency of it.
Thanks for making it all the way through - appreciate any and all feedback!

Best regards,

Sparq
 
For suction, you want to keep the water velocity below 6 ft/sec. For returns, you want to keep the water velocity below 8 ft/sec.

Size.......6 ft/sec......8 ft/sec.

1.5"...........38...............51 gpm
2"..............63...............84 gpm
2.5............90.............119 gpm
3.0".........138.............184 gpm
4”...........234.............313 gpm

As long as you follow these guidelines, you are good up to 100 feet.

Individual skimmers should not exceed 60 gpm.

So, a 2" line from each skimmer is fine.

You have to know the total maximum flow rate and you have to know how many lines you are using to provide the flow.

What is the highest flow rate that will be required?

Will the system be above the pool level, below or at ground level?
 
Sparq79 said:
Pentair UltraTemp 120Q Electric Heater (127K BTU) - Almond Color
Click to expand...
I would include a 5 psi check valve bypass on this because the restriction is too much for high flow.
Sparq79 said:
Pentair IntelliFlo VSF Variable/4-speed Pum
Click to expand...
I would get the Intelliflo XF VSF.
Sparq79 said:
Pentair Filter Cartridge (Clean and clear - CC150)
Click to expand...
I would get a Clean and Clear Plus 520 square foot cartridge filter.

For the spa suction, you probably want 3" pipe depending on the number of jets and the flow per jet.

I would have at least 2 skimmers.
 
JamesW said:
I would include a 5 psi check valve bypass on this because the restriction is too much for high flow.

I would get the Intelliflo XF VSF.

I would get a Clean and Clear Plus 520 square foot cartridge filter.

For the spa suction, you probably want 3" pipe depending on the number of jets and the flow per jet.

I would have at least 2 skimmers.
Click to expand...
Hi James,

Thanks a million for the super quick answers and suggestions. I'm not going to lie - I am not sure I understand it all - but here goes:

  • I think getting the extra check valve is probably the easiest thing - I can ask for that.
  • Pool equipment will be at the same level as the pool
  • Flow rate. My pool is 13,665 gallons - so if I wanted to turn it over in 8 hours that's 25GPM and even if I needed to do it in half the time we're talking 50GPM - so I guess, does this mean I'm fine with the set up since it's under your 63 GPM guideline? Sorry if I'm thick and not getting it, but how would I determine the max required?
  • The XF pump has a 3" connector - so this means I would have to tell them to use 3" piping then? Because I also saw you mention that 2" at the skimmer(s) is fine?
  • Right now they have only one skimmer in the layout (i.e. if I go back to add another skimmer there's going to be additional labor required to incorporate this and there will likely need to be another inspection since it requires them to mess with what was already inspected. Can I not get away with using just one skimmer, or is it crucial I have 2? The pool will be enclosed - so I'm not too concerned with surface cleaning...but if it's essential for flow etc...that's another story.
  • Returns - I have no clue how many they are planning - I can ask - I would assume at least 2.
  • The cartridge - is the larger size just out of "convenience" - from 150 to 520 is quite a jump - while I could ask for that I'm just confused as to why it would be necessary? I don't even see a 520 on Pentair's site TBH (Clean and Clear Cartridge Filters)
Apologies for all the additional questions - and appreciate your time!!

Best regards,

Sparq
 
www.pentair.com

Clean & Clear® Plus Cartridge Filters

The Clean & Clear Plus filter delivers commercial-grade performance that keeps pools clean and clear, day in and day out. Find out where to buy here.
www.pentair.com www.pentair.com


"Clean and Clear Plus" CCP420 or CCP520.

The check valve should be put in parallel to the heater to bypass excess flow around the heater.

You can't use a regular check valve. It has to be a 3 to 5 psi spring bypass check valve.

Flo Control Valve, Check, 2 In, 5 Lb Spring (1095-20) - INYOPools.com

1095-20 - VALVE, CHECK, 2 IN, 5 LB SPRING (1095-20)
www.inyopools.com www.inyopools.com

2.5" pipe is ok up to 90 gpm.

The spa jets will take the most flow.

You have to know the flow required per jet and multiply by the number of jets.

For example, if you have 8 jets and each jet takes 11 gpm, that’s 88 gpm and 2.5” suction is fine.

If you have 8 jets and each requires 15 gpm, then you need 120 gpm, which would require 3” pipe for the spa suction.

Don't worry about "Turnover".

You really should not need more than 40 gpm for the pool.

Most of the time, you can probably run the pool at 20 gpm.

The IntelliFlo XF takes 2.5" PVC to the inside of the union fitting or a 3” PVC coupling to the outside of the coupling fitting.

Since you have 2.5” PVC going to the pump, I would do the suction manifold in 2.5” or 3”.
 
Last edited:
The minimum flow rate is 30 gpm.

Anything more than 30 gpm really does not help the performance.

At 30 gpm, the resistance is about 2.8 psi or about 6.5 feet of head.

You could use a 3psi, a 4 psi or a 5 psi bypass check valve.

With a 3 psi bypass check valve, water would begin bypassing the heater at about 32 gpm.

With a 4 psi bypass check valve, water would begin bypassing the heater at about 37 gpm.

With a 5 psi bypass check valve, water would begin bypassing the heater at about 41 gpm.

Without a bypass check valve, the resistance at 90 gpm is about 8.7 psi or about 20 feet of head.

Minimum 30 gpm [110 lpm]

Flow Rate Maximum 120 gpm [456 lpm] - If system flow rate exceeds 120 gpm, a bypass valve is required.

Maximum Working Water Pressure 50 psi
1623775813556.png
 
JamesW said:
The minimum flow rate is 30 gpm.

Anything more than 30 gpm really does not help the performance.

At 30 gpm, the resistance is about 2.8 psi or about 6.5 feet of head.

You could use a 3psi, a 4 psi or a 5 psi bypass check valve.

With a 3 psi bypass check valve, water would begin bypassing the heater at about 32 gpm.

With a 4 psi bypass check valve, water would begin bypassing the heater at about 37 gpm.

With a 5 psi bypass check valve, water would begin bypassing the heater at about 41 gpm.

Without a bypass check valve, the resistance at 90 gpm is about 8.7 psi or about 20 feet of head.

Minimum 30 gpm [110 lpm]

Flow Rate Maximum 120 gpm [456 lpm] - If system flow rate exceeds 120 gpm, a bypass valve is required.

Maximum Working Water Pressure 50 psi
View attachment 345602
Click to expand...

I feel like I need to go to school and get a PhD on this at this point :) - my head is spinning. This is probably a relatively dumb thing to say...but if the bypass valve is there to have water bypass the heater, would that not also mean I'm not pushing any (or as much) heated water to the pool once I hit the gpm rate - which then opens up a whole other can of worms (would I rather inefficient heating or inefficient cleaning?).

While I'm super thankful for the information you're providing, I'm not grasping 95% of the information due to my lack of basic knowledge on the topic. I think what I will need to do is just ask the PB to provide me a detailed plumbing plan that I can perhaps share here - and that way I'm providing more of what you may need to give me the answer I'm looking for (which is really if my desired set up would not kill my equipment or be super inefficient...and if so, what I needed to change in their plans to make it work).

Apologies if I've sent you on a goose chase - I'll try to get more details here shortly.

Thanks again!

Sparq
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Sparq79 said:
This is probably a relatively dumb thing to say...but if the bypass valve is there to have water bypass the heater, would that not also mean I'm not pushing any (or as much) heated water to the pool once I hit the gpm rate - which then opens up a whole other can of worms (would I rather inefficient heating or inefficient cleaning?).
Click to expand...
The check valve does not open until there is at least 3.5 psi differential between the inlet and outlet, which means that the flow through the heater should be about 34 gpm.

You will still have at least 30 gpm going through the heater and you will still get the same amount of heat.
 
Last edited:
The check valve bypass is used in various equipment to bypass excessive flow around equipment.

For example, The Autopilot salt cell.

AutoPilot’s patented Bypass Manifold is a pre-assembled unit designed to control the flow rate delivered to our cell. The spring check valve in the manifold allows excess flow, over 20 gpm, to bypass the cell.

autopilot.com

Manifold with PPC1 Cell and Base - AutoPilot Website

Part #: PPM1 AutoPilot's patented Bypass Manifold is a pre-assembled unit designed to control the flow rate delivered to our cell. The spring check valve in the manifold allows excess flow, over 20 gpm, to bypass the cell. The water in turn flows at a controlled rate through the cell where it...
autopilot.com autopilot.com
Click to expand...

The heat pump does have a check valve bypass inside to help control the amount of flow through the exchanger.

R172305 Water Bypass Check Valve.

However, it is a 12 lb (psi) spring, which seems to me like it will never open because the head loss never gets to 12 psi.

You can see the spring that holds the plate closed until the psi reaches the set point.

Water Bypass Check Valve 12 Lb. Spring - 1.5 Inch Socket​


12 lb spring bypass check valve 2.jpg12 lb spring bypass check valve.jpg




1623795080321.png

1623794292238.png

1623794351959.png
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.
Top Bottom
Back
Jump to latest Follow Reply