& to Dirk again, it’s well worth having Mechanicals & structures (throughout the property) inspected by specialists.
People tec pool with cracks
- Thread starter rejeanamg71
- Start date
It's a generally accepted fact that concrete cracks.
A crack doesn't necessarily mean a disaster is imminent.
It may or may not be a critical issue.
You really need a qualified expert to advise you.
A crack doesn't necessarily mean a disaster is imminent.
It may or may not be a critical issue.
You really need a qualified expert to advise you.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,848
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I'm still a rookie when it comes to real estate investing. I've made some mistakes. But the ones hardest learned were two I did not anticipate: that real estate values don't just keep going straight up (duh!) and that the people poised to make the real profit on all your money, risk and hard work are everybody but you! The realtor, the painter, the landscaper, the inspectors, the city/county/state/feds, the contractors, the repair guys, the stagers, the bank, the title company, insurance companies. It all starts to feel like payola after a while... Even if you do everything right, you can still end up with only a few shekels after everyone else takes their cut! That's why I walked away from that $20K repair. It's not $20K out of the $700K that house might have someday sold for, that's $20K out of the profit you're left with after everybody else's pieces of the pie are gone, which in reality could be 100% of what's left over! Swampwoman is absolutely right, you make your money on real estate when you buy!
It's pretty scary when you actually sit down and do the hard math...
It's pretty scary when you actually sit down and do the hard math...
I have no idea but it’s pebbletec so maybe however they made the pebbletec
Here’s the issue the owner Purchased at a much higher price 40k more- they lived there 10years - he paid his loan down that 40k - he wants to walk away even with 0 he even paid 6700 toward closing cost. Seller paid for pool inspection and we have it done now but we’re waiting on estimate for repair to see if he will fix it, When I say house needs work - really it’s just flooring needs replaced - doors need replaced - and it needs updates by us later (not a priority) Ac is old other than that it’s a nice house built in 92 - sadly his wife past late 2015 at hospital - we found her obituary, he left the house and moved out of town - but has kept lawn and pool up. shortly after 2016 he
put up for sale for 290k we’re down to 263 now so this is why he doesn’t want to have to put too much more into it. We accept that but the deciding factor was lot size .3 acres- county zoned for animals - beautiful pool with waterfall a- house layout with good bones and potential. For Bakersfield Ca this is a med house price and Considering the lot and pool it does value more and has potential to be great.
The septic tank was to be cleaned and Certified so that was also included by seller. I might consider warranty for the sake of A/c being so old - Other than the pool that’s the only major cost I foresee
We plan to update room by room and we upon moving in already will be investing in new floors and doors which are a priority and painting - me and hubby can do it all luckily to save money that way.
The septic tank was to be cleaned and Certified so that was also included by seller. I might consider warranty for the sake of A/c being so old - Other than the pool that’s the only major cost I foresee
We plan to update room by room and we upon moving in already will be investing in new floors and doors which are a priority and painting - me and hubby can do it all luckily to save money that way.
- May 23, 2015
- 24,407
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
The “contaminated sand in gunite” is bogus. How could he possible know anything about the gunite which is beneath the plaster?? Unless the inspector drilled a core sample out of the pool shell and did some kind of analysis, the “contaminated sand” comment is nothing but pure speculation (and baloney). That pool shell is most likely cracked and if it is cracked it’s from sub-soil movement. The only definitive way to know is to drain the pool, chip away the affected plaster and inspect the shell.
Any idea if the pool leaks? A crack in the shell doesn’t necessarily create a leak per se but further expansion of the crack can.
Any idea if the pool leaks? A crack in the shell doesn’t necessarily create a leak per se but further expansion of the crack can.
I think that the inspector is mixing the terms plaster and gunite. That alone invalidates their report.
Their analysis of the issue does not make sense.
I don't understand how they came up with contaminated sand.
The likely causes of cracks are:
1) Settling of the sub grade.
2) Bad concrete mix. Bad ratio of ingredients.
3) Low strength concrete.
4) Inadequate thickness.
5) Inadequate rebar.
There are a lot of reasons for concrete to crack.
In my opinion, the gunite is cracked and the gunite is not exposed for examination. Therefore, a determination of the gunite quality can not be made.
The contaminated sand hypothesis is not supported by any logical evidence.
Their analysis of the issue does not make sense.
I don't understand how they came up with contaminated sand.
The likely causes of cracks are:
1) Settling of the sub grade.
2) Bad concrete mix. Bad ratio of ingredients.
3) Low strength concrete.
4) Inadequate thickness.
5) Inadequate rebar.
There are a lot of reasons for concrete to crack.
In my opinion, the gunite is cracked and the gunite is not exposed for examination. Therefore, a determination of the gunite quality can not be made.
The contaminated sand hypothesis is not supported by any logical evidence.
The location, length and orientation of the crack point to the deep end settling more than the shallow end, which would create stress at the transition line.
That's logical because the deep end holds more water and is heavier.
The critical issue is to determine if the settling is likely to continue.
It would be interesting to know when the crack first appeared and has it grown over time?
If you can find out some of the details of the construction of the pool, that might help. For example, what are the soil quality details?
Was there an engineer who designed and supervised the build? Can you get any documentation from the builder?
Is the pool currently perfectly level all around?
That's logical because the deep end holds more water and is heavier.
The critical issue is to determine if the settling is likely to continue.
It would be interesting to know when the crack first appeared and has it grown over time?
If you can find out some of the details of the construction of the pool, that might help. For example, what are the soil quality details?
Was there an engineer who designed and supervised the build? Can you get any documentation from the builder?
Is the pool currently perfectly level all around?
James I appreciate your feedback and expertise, Can I ask you your credentials?. I would like to present what you explained to my realtor who is a family friend and has worked very hard for us.
that’s true, I will have to pay for the deeper inspection, however they recommended pool finish to be repaired and restored but is this more of a cosmetic thing they are implying????
maybe I will have another company come out and just have to pay myself
- Jun 7, 2017
- 9,057
- Pool Size
- 29000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Jandy Aquapure 1400
If it is just the pebbletec finish it will be a lot cheaper than if the gunite is compromised. Could be anywhere from $5k to $30k but they won't really know until the pebbletec is removed. If you are "paying" for the pool in your purchase price, I would remove it altogether. With all of the unknowns the pool in this case adds no value at all and arguably adds negative value to the property. If the pool is purely a "bonus" then you get what you pay for.
Good morning, rejean.
You don't need to say here whether you're pre qualified for a conventional mortgage or whether you're seeking a fed-backed FHA mortgage with a low downpayment, but you did mention feeling a bit cash-strapped, which is part of why this situation would be a bit of a red flag for me. So I have a suggestion to run by your realtor that might at least ensure you're able to afford the fix.
See if you can change the deal and the financing to a 203K FHA home loan that INCLUDES the pool renovation. That way you won't get stuck -- at least in the sense of having nowhere to go if the repair is way more structural and expensive as it might be. 203K Renovation Home loans can be a bit of a pain to execute but it is one way to fairly economically finance a major improvement and you mentioned that there are a few other things, including the A/C, that will need attention. I feel this way you might be a bit more protected. If the house can't finance at what the proposed 203K FHA number is, that kind of answers your question.
You still absolutely need to pay for a real, independent, 3rd party (not the original pool builder) inspection of what is going on with the pool, but that is a small cost compared to what you stand to lose if you go thorugh with the deal and can't finance or fund the repair.
Here's info on 203K FHA loans -- you'd be looking at the structural, not the streamline: 203K Loan (FHA) - Home Renovation Mortgage Benefits Downsides
You don't need to say here whether you're pre qualified for a conventional mortgage or whether you're seeking a fed-backed FHA mortgage with a low downpayment, but you did mention feeling a bit cash-strapped, which is part of why this situation would be a bit of a red flag for me. So I have a suggestion to run by your realtor that might at least ensure you're able to afford the fix.
See if you can change the deal and the financing to a 203K FHA home loan that INCLUDES the pool renovation. That way you won't get stuck -- at least in the sense of having nowhere to go if the repair is way more structural and expensive as it might be. 203K Renovation Home loans can be a bit of a pain to execute but it is one way to fairly economically finance a major improvement and you mentioned that there are a few other things, including the A/C, that will need attention. I feel this way you might be a bit more protected. If the house can't finance at what the proposed 203K FHA number is, that kind of answers your question.
You still absolutely need to pay for a real, independent, 3rd party (not the original pool builder) inspection of what is going on with the pool, but that is a small cost compared to what you stand to lose if you go thorugh with the deal and can't finance or fund the repair.
Here's info on 203K FHA loans -- you'd be looking at the structural, not the streamline: 203K Loan (FHA) - Home Renovation Mortgage Benefits Downsides
cfherrman
TFP Guide
Sucks the seller is on hard times, but that has zero to do with you and buying this house, you need to buy it if it's right for you, do not care about the seller.
Having a realtor that is a friend is typically a bad idea, keep business to business and if it goes bad just don't use them as a realtor anyone and keep your friendship.
Good luck with the sale, this one you definitely need to cross your tees and dot your i's
Having a realtor that is a friend is typically a bad idea, keep business to business and if it goes bad just don't use them as a realtor anyone and keep your friendship.
Good luck with the sale, this one you definitely need to cross your tees and dot your i's
- May 23, 2015
- 24,407
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I would suggest that you do not use a pool builder for this. I would suggest that you look to a civil engineering firm with the capabilities of doing non-destructive evaluation of a pool shell. It will take some calling around but maybe try a company like Pool Engineering Inc and ask them about evaluation services or try to find a firm that’s willing to do the inspection properly.
Pool Engineering, Inc., Structural Design of Swimming Pools and Residential Improvement Structures
santacruzpool
Gold Supporter
The advice Matt gives for contacting Pool Engineering is a good one - they did the engineering on our pool (and probably hundreds of others on this forum).
When we were planning to build our pool I kept getting referrals from friends in construction for Burkett's Pool Plastering - they apparently also service Bakersfield and do repair/remodeling. I wouldn't be surprised if they were the sub that did the pebble finish for your pool as lots of pool builders use them. Might be a company to call if you want another opinion and want a pool inspection from a company that does remodels and plastering.
Good luck - hopefully it is just a crack in the plaster.
When we were planning to build our pool I kept getting referrals from friends in construction for Burkett's Pool Plastering - they apparently also service Bakersfield and do repair/remodeling. I wouldn't be surprised if they were the sub that did the pebble finish for your pool as lots of pool builders use them. Might be a company to call if you want another opinion and want a pool inspection from a company that does remodels and plastering.
Good luck - hopefully it is just a crack in the plaster.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,848
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I swore I was going to walk away from this thread, as my comments, I'm sure, are not appreciated. But I can't help myself...
I'm looking around here for a hat that will not taste too bad, 'cause I will eat it if I'm wrong (and I am absolutely no expert in pool construction). We are all hoping for the best for this couple, but come on folks! What? Did Moses the water beetle raise his little legs and part the pebble for his little beetle-people to cross the entire width of the pool, right between the shallow and deep end? How could Pebble Tec possibly do that? Has anyone ever seen Pebble Tec do that? (Why don't you call Pebble Tec and ask? That'd be free! Send them the pictures. Seriously. See what they say.) THAT IS A CRACKED SHELL. Plain as day. They've got water leaking into the gunite, or will have, and for how long? Probably eating away at the rebar as we speak. Why didn't that worthless pool inspector start a proper leak test?!? I'll eat the brim if that pool is holding water.
Back to my lack of knowledge about pool construction... The pool is dropping into the soil. How can that soil now be properly compacted with a pool sitting on it?!? Drill through it? Pump concrete under it somehow? Is there any way now to even properly test that soil, UNDER A POOL, that would determine if the sinking has stopped?! The pebble is a $9K repair minimum. That's a known figure. How could repairing the shell and fixing the soil problem in such a way that would guarantee no reoccurrence of the settling be any less? It has to be more. Way more. And where are you going to find a contractor that would attempt that? Even if you could, he wouldn't take on a liability-prone job like that for a bargain. No way. I'm thinking another 10, maybe, but I'm always off by at least double when I guess about construction costs. And you won't have contractors lining up to get at this job. You just won't. They want to build pools. They know how to do that. They don't want to fix pools. Somebody else's problem. And certainly not one with this kind of unknowns! If you find one, he'll be able to charge whatever he wants. And no matter what bid you get, this is just primed for that cliched scenario: half way into a 30K+ (or whatever) repair and the contractor comes to you with "Gee, real sorry, we just ran into [fill in the blank] and we're gonna need another [fill in the blank check] to fix it. (Hint, it's not going to be another few hundred dollars.)
Would you buy this house if it didn't have a pool? Is it that special? Is that .3 acre so hard to find that you're willing to spend another $20K, $30K, $50K+ over it's value to deal with this pool? Either to fix it, replace it, or fill it? Or are you just going to patch that crack until you want to sell it later? Do you think the next buyer is going to be as sympathetic as you're being to the seller? Is this your starter home? 'cause even without the pool issue you're looking at living there a long time before you could flip it. With the potential pool expense, you might never get any equity back. Are you just starting your lives together? Or is this your retirement home?
I don't know the first thing about you, or your plan. I can only say: I'm old, I'd never buy this property as my last house. My daughter is young, I'd never let her buy it as her first house.
I can't argue the prudence of getting a proper inspection by an engineer. But depending on what that might cost, I'd be tempted to go another way first. I'd first see if I could get a contractor to even look at the job (that's free), and provide an estimate (also free) for repairing a cracked shell, a contractor that would guarantee he could stop the settling. You've got a cracked shell. You don't need to pay to have someone tell you that (That is pure speculation. But tell me I'm wrong!). The more important thing to know before you buy, before you spend thousands on inspections: is there anyone willing to fix it, and what would they charge? Sure, an engineering firm might be able to tell you what needs to be done to fix the problem, but if you can't get anyone to do the work, for anywhere near what would make any sort of financial sense, then what is the point in throwing more money into inspections. Unless the property is so special that you're willing to deal with that pool to live there. And deal with that pool when you want to sell. Maybe after spending a grand or two with the engineering firm they'll tell you "Oh, that's nothing. It's fine, just pour some goop into the crack and you're good." Yah, that could happen.
I am talking out of my ..., for sure. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. You won't hurt my feelings. I am praying I am wrong!! Again, I know this is not what you came here for, but I just can't in good conscious say nothing.
PS. It does appear to have good bones. RV garage. Stucco. Tile roof. Big yard. All good. But you're about to make a decision that could affect your quality of life for the next several decades. Please be smart about it. At the very least, do all the free stuff first, before you throw more money at this. That's all I'm sayin'...
--edit--
Wait... that's not all I'm sayin'! (Sorry, I'm still stewing about this!) Don't forget about the waterfall leak. That could have been caused by the same movement event(s). But both are also huge red flags that this pool was not built properly in the first place. I wouldn't even think about going farther if I couldn't vet the original PB. Contact the CA Board. Check his record, his credentials. Certainly the ground was prepared incorrectly. You can't assume that if by some miracle you can afford to make this project all work, that those are the only two pool problems that you'll someday face. It would be just as likely that you'll have more big-ticket issues, as less likely.
Speaking of contractors, if you could find someone that's willing to fix the problem, I'd question that! We've got threads here where people can't even get pool contractors to complete their bids, or even call them back. They're all too busy. What about this as-yet-to-be-determined fantasy crack-fixin' pool contractor would afford him the time to take on this job? Is he so desperate that he can't find work building pools? If you're lucky enough to find someone, and you go ahead with a fix, you'd better get some references to determine he knows what he's doing, and has done this before...
I'm looking around here for a hat that will not taste too bad, 'cause I will eat it if I'm wrong (and I am absolutely no expert in pool construction). We are all hoping for the best for this couple, but come on folks! What? Did Moses the water beetle raise his little legs and part the pebble for his little beetle-people to cross the entire width of the pool, right between the shallow and deep end? How could Pebble Tec possibly do that? Has anyone ever seen Pebble Tec do that? (Why don't you call Pebble Tec and ask? That'd be free! Send them the pictures. Seriously. See what they say.) THAT IS A CRACKED SHELL. Plain as day. They've got water leaking into the gunite, or will have, and for how long? Probably eating away at the rebar as we speak. Why didn't that worthless pool inspector start a proper leak test?!? I'll eat the brim if that pool is holding water.
Back to my lack of knowledge about pool construction... The pool is dropping into the soil. How can that soil now be properly compacted with a pool sitting on it?!? Drill through it? Pump concrete under it somehow? Is there any way now to even properly test that soil, UNDER A POOL, that would determine if the sinking has stopped?! The pebble is a $9K repair minimum. That's a known figure. How could repairing the shell and fixing the soil problem in such a way that would guarantee no reoccurrence of the settling be any less? It has to be more. Way more. And where are you going to find a contractor that would attempt that? Even if you could, he wouldn't take on a liability-prone job like that for a bargain. No way. I'm thinking another 10, maybe, but I'm always off by at least double when I guess about construction costs. And you won't have contractors lining up to get at this job. You just won't. They want to build pools. They know how to do that. They don't want to fix pools. Somebody else's problem. And certainly not one with this kind of unknowns! If you find one, he'll be able to charge whatever he wants. And no matter what bid you get, this is just primed for that cliched scenario: half way into a 30K+ (or whatever) repair and the contractor comes to you with "Gee, real sorry, we just ran into [fill in the blank] and we're gonna need another [fill in the blank check] to fix it. (Hint, it's not going to be another few hundred dollars.)
Would you buy this house if it didn't have a pool? Is it that special? Is that .3 acre so hard to find that you're willing to spend another $20K, $30K, $50K+ over it's value to deal with this pool? Either to fix it, replace it, or fill it? Or are you just going to patch that crack until you want to sell it later? Do you think the next buyer is going to be as sympathetic as you're being to the seller? Is this your starter home? 'cause even without the pool issue you're looking at living there a long time before you could flip it. With the potential pool expense, you might never get any equity back. Are you just starting your lives together? Or is this your retirement home?
I don't know the first thing about you, or your plan. I can only say: I'm old, I'd never buy this property as my last house. My daughter is young, I'd never let her buy it as her first house.
I can't argue the prudence of getting a proper inspection by an engineer. But depending on what that might cost, I'd be tempted to go another way first. I'd first see if I could get a contractor to even look at the job (that's free), and provide an estimate (also free) for repairing a cracked shell, a contractor that would guarantee he could stop the settling. You've got a cracked shell. You don't need to pay to have someone tell you that (That is pure speculation. But tell me I'm wrong!). The more important thing to know before you buy, before you spend thousands on inspections: is there anyone willing to fix it, and what would they charge? Sure, an engineering firm might be able to tell you what needs to be done to fix the problem, but if you can't get anyone to do the work, for anywhere near what would make any sort of financial sense, then what is the point in throwing more money into inspections. Unless the property is so special that you're willing to deal with that pool to live there. And deal with that pool when you want to sell. Maybe after spending a grand or two with the engineering firm they'll tell you "Oh, that's nothing. It's fine, just pour some goop into the crack and you're good." Yah, that could happen.
I am talking out of my ..., for sure. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. You won't hurt my feelings. I am praying I am wrong!! Again, I know this is not what you came here for, but I just can't in good conscious say nothing.
PS. It does appear to have good bones. RV garage. Stucco. Tile roof. Big yard. All good. But you're about to make a decision that could affect your quality of life for the next several decades. Please be smart about it. At the very least, do all the free stuff first, before you throw more money at this. That's all I'm sayin'...
--edit--
Wait... that's not all I'm sayin'! (Sorry, I'm still stewing about this!) Don't forget about the waterfall leak. That could have been caused by the same movement event(s). But both are also huge red flags that this pool was not built properly in the first place. I wouldn't even think about going farther if I couldn't vet the original PB. Contact the CA Board. Check his record, his credentials. Certainly the ground was prepared incorrectly. You can't assume that if by some miracle you can afford to make this project all work, that those are the only two pool problems that you'll someday face. It would be just as likely that you'll have more big-ticket issues, as less likely.
Speaking of contractors, if you could find someone that's willing to fix the problem, I'd question that! We've got threads here where people can't even get pool contractors to complete their bids, or even call them back. They're all too busy. What about this as-yet-to-be-determined fantasy crack-fixin' pool contractor would afford him the time to take on this job? Is he so desperate that he can't find work building pools? If you're lucky enough to find someone, and you go ahead with a fix, you'd better get some references to determine he knows what he's doing, and has done this before...
I am not ignoring you Dirk, I appreciate you and your down to earth (right to the point) view - Believe me we are at the edge of our seat right now waiting today or tomorrow for the appraisal to see if there’s anything else wrong that will for sure send us out door- I have 6 precious dogs and we live in the city which is big no no - county land as this one is perfect, but your right about the pool it could go either way - but it’s looking more grim than good. We just don’t know but I am Going to take your advice and talk to a few people here in town about Pebble Tec and the unusually long crack from shallow to deep - I think for sure by Monday we will have a final decision but I will let you know I woke up this morning with a more of a forget it attitude - take the $500 loss and move on. I don’t want to be so stressed. It will be a first home - we are in our mid 40’s with a young teenage son. We’ve been renters for many,many years. It’s going to be a few hundred dollars more than our rent but considering we will have to finance our projects and pay them as we go, and that’s fine it’s just any additional like this that worries me. So thanks for the blunt view to open my eyes even more. I really do appreciate it.
For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t buy a pool with a cracked shell, even though shotrete, wrecking balls and/or plaster is just a phone call away for me..