New Raypak P-R266A-EN-X - Issues after install

[wberryment]

Good day,
I have a brand new heater purchased online. I placed it on a pad and installed the 2" plumbing with check valve to it. All straight runs in and out. Hooked up the electrical per the manual instructions. Had the gas company run a new line to the heater. Gas company pressure tested the line (2 psi) and it passed. The gas line has a Maxitrol regulator in line 325-5L. 2 psi Po 7" - 11". All hooked up and ready to go. Gas company leaves after town inspector passes their work. They did turn the Honeywell gas valve to On for us. They made it clear that they just run and hook up the gas per code to the unit and they don't work on the unit itself. So they left and I tried starting it. Turned up the temp higher than the pool and spark spark spark 16 times doesn't ignite. I shut off the valve and walk away. Came back a bit later same thing. Tried it a bit later and after 14 or 15 sparks it fires. Said ok maybe needed to get rid of air in the line. It wasn't on more than 15 to 20 seconds and bang bang bang (kettling) coming from the unit. I turned it off. Went on Raypak's site to see who does warranty work. Called two of them and they said they only work on things they install. Told me to call Raypak. I couldn't find a tech support number only sales. So I emailed them they told me it was a flow problem. I have a Hayward variable speed pump 4 speeds and when I run the pump water going thru the heater at any speeds it comes out at the pool as it did before the heater was installed. There is no slow down or restrictions from the pool water just running thru the heater without calling for heat. I put it on speed one on the pump and turned up the Temp to call for heat and I got a SW error on the heater. Looked that up which is low flow. Said ok let me take it to the highest speed and ok the heater is happy and tries to spark the pilot. Spark spark nothing. Walk away came back a little later. Same thing. Came back and tried again and after several sparks it started (again on the highest speed) and then bang bang bang. Emailed Raypak they said it was a flow problem. They told me to check the governor which I did boiling water test all is fine. They said try it with the governor out which I did. Took a few attempts to get it started but again after several walk aways and retries it fired. Bang bang kettling again. They said see if the by pass is stuck. I took the header off and the bypass had about an eight of an inch where it didn't get seated down all the way at the factory I assume. Tried again still bang bang bang. While it was running I tried to reduce the shut off valve outside the unit that the gas company has on their line and when doing this I did get the noise to stop and it sounded fine and I was getting a 8 for the flame. Was getting heated water out of the side of the pool. Raypak keeps telling me it's a water flow problem. How can it be a water flow problem when the units pilot light won't ignite 99% of the time and I have to throttle the gas line feed down by 75% to get the banging to go away. The gas company is coming out today to see if he can get the pilot to work consistently but I suspect their is an issue with the gas valve and all I am getting is finger pointing. No warranty service unless Raypak referred warranty company installed the unit, Raypak canned response flow issue and gas company saying their stuff is fine. Very very frustrated. And I had the unit on the pad waiting for the gas company after setting up appointment and the return window ran out but then I find out that Leslie's won't let you return a heater anyway. Now I have $$$$$ sitting on a pad not working. Anyone go thru anything like this before and have any good suggestions?

 

[JamesW]

Do you have pictures of everything?

 

[wberryment]

Part of the gas line install was a gas line for a new barbecue. The barbecue lights first time no issues. The Maxitrol Po 7" - 11" regulator is installed before the T (one to the barbecue and the other to the gas heater) again on a 3/4" 2 psi gas line before the regulator. The sediment drip is before the regulator also not at the heater unit and the gas company said that it is ok that way and the town inspector didn't call them on it. I have to assume they know what they know what they are doing. They own the gas lines in the street and the gas meter at the house. They are the natural gas provider in this neighbor hood and they will hook folks up to their appliances for a fee which I opted to do versus paying for a gas installer then having to get these folks out here for hooking up to their gas meter. My philosophy here was to let them do the whole thing.

 

[JamesW]

The plumbing looks ok.

As long as you have at least 25 gpm, I don't think that flow is an issue unless there is a problem in the heater.

What is the gas pressure going into the heater's gas valve before startup and once the heater begins to run?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/AWSProd/sites/raypakcom/documents/241236.pdf

 

[JamesW]

What is the filter pressure?

Check the salt cell to make sure that it is clean.

Is the check valve working correctly?

 

[wberryment]

I just changed the pool sand in the sand filter this weekend to eliminate a dirty filter. Filter sand wasn't that dirty. Pressure on the filter at the highest flowrate out of the pump which runs at 3250rpm is 8psi. I took off the header on the pool heater to look at the bypass valve and the heat exchanger tubes and the tubes are clean as a whistle. The bypass valve had lifted off the seat a little bit so I pushed it back down and put the whole thing back together. There is no external bypass valve so everything runs thru the heater regardless of calling for heat or just running with no heat. The check valve opens all the way and the pool returns, 4 total, have really strong flow coming out of them. This pool also has a waterfall feature which I have off while trying to get this heater working but with it on I am getting really good flow coming out of the water feature as well. I don't have a flow meter to measure exactly but as mentioned, when and only when the unit fires and it senses that it has enough flow to spark the pilot, it will sit there and spark repeatedly and try and light the pilot with 99% of the time it will fail. When it does light then it will kettle in the heat exchanger tubes very quickly. Everyone says flow which I understand would cause this but when I do manage to get it to fire and it starts the bang bang kettling if I can throttle down the gas company's shut off a 1/4 of a turn the banging goes away and the unit runs fine and the flame indicator says 8. But I just can't get the pilot to light most of the time. The gas company is supposed to show up today but I am not holding out hopes that they are going to do anything except provide the gas to the gas valve another words I don't expect them to start adjusting screw on the gas valve. The only thing I can hope for is that he is willing to show me that he has between 6" and 10. WC supply pressure. I guess the gas valve itself if factory set to 4WC and it will regulate the supply down to that and let it thru the gas valve to the other side. Someone I know who had a pool heater put in said that he thought that each branch to an appliance needed its own regulator. In my case I have one regulator and after that regulator it branches to the new barbecue and to the pool. Gas company said that it is ok to do it that way and I am in no position to question that. The barbecue lights every time one click turn of the knob. I don't know why this heater won't light the pilot. Maybe something in the gas valve, maybe to much supply pressure which if that is the case and it runs the burners to hot then maybe that is why it is causing the kettling and I have to turn the gas valve down on the supply to bring down the manifold flame. Very frustrating.

 

[wberryment]

Also the salt cell is clean. I looked at that this past weekend when I had it apart doing the filter sand.

 

[JamesW]

Ok, as far as I can tell, you did everything correctly.

Let's see what the gas pressure is going to the heater's gas valve static (heater off) and dynamic (heater on).

 

[wberryment]

Gas company was out today. He checked the supply WC and it was 8.7 within the range for supply pressure from Raypak for 6 to 10.5. He took it down to 6.5 to see if that made a difference starting the unit. No difference. Just sparked and sparked and eventually ignition fail.
He checked the WC at the inlet port of the gas valve and it was 6.5 as shown after he took the supply down to 6.5. He then checked the outlet side and it was 0.09 which is the reading static and as the unit sparks. He removed his supply pipe and looked inside the gas valve and didn't see any obstructions. He said that everything points to the gas valve as the culprit. Now I need to convince Raypak. Unit is under warranty but the warranty centers will only work on it if they installed it so now I am in a vicious circle.

 

[JamesW]

Seems like the gas valve is not opening all the time, but when it does open, the heater knocks.

It seems like there might be several issues.

 

[JamesW]

Did you get the input voltage connected correctly?

Note: If you get this wrong, you could cause permanent damage.

Make sure that you are 100% sure about the connection before applying power.

Check the supply voltage indicator to see what that shows.

Check the fault history.

 

[wberryment]

We opted to wire it for 120 VAC straight from a GFI breaker in the pool subpanel to the Heater itself. Connected wiring per the manual. Supply voltage on our display says 27.4 which is in the range of 24 to 29 volts as shown in your information from the manual. To me the electrical is wired properly per the manual. When powered on it goes thru the revision check shows the pools and set temp, allows us into the sub display where we can read the voltage, errors, and flame.

 

[wberryment]

Also I want to thank you James for taking the time out of your day to reply. At least I have someone here to talk this thru with me. I'm still convinced something is wrong with the new unit but I do want to exhaust all of the installer items on my end which I feel were done by the book.

 

[JamesW]

Is the check valve at the output of the heater working correctly?

 

[Oldpoolie]

Just a guess, the internal bypass in the header is "closed" . Its not letting water into the heat exchanger when it fires? Or it's only letting a "trickle" through? Hence the kettling? Just throwing it out there.

 

[wberryment]

Yes. The pump return is thru the heater and out the heater outlet regardless if it is calling for heat or just returning the water. The check valve isn't binding. Always opens and lets the pool water flow back to the pool. If it wasn't opening regardless if the heater is running or not then there would be all kinds of warning signs for that meaning no return to the pool, pump would be making noises etc.. The heater won't ignite when we set it above the temp of the pool water. Just sparks. As mentioned the gas company was out and they are getting a 0 WC on the outlet side of the gas valve. Makes sense to me and I am not a gas tech. No gas no pilot ignition. When the power switch is turned on we get the firmware start up screen and the pool water and set temp. If we set the pool desired temp above the pool temp and the pump is not putting out the proper flow the unit will display SW not enough flow. Turn up the pump speed to speed 3 or 4 and unit tries to spark and no go but I already know that because the gas company showed a 0 WC on the gas valve outlet. I'm updating this. I just talked to Raypak and they said that I would get a 0 WC on the gas valve outlet because the pilot hadn't lit yet which is on a different valve I believe that is what he said.

 

[JamesW]

OK, thanks for the update.

Not sure what else to check.

 

[swamprat69]

Everything that I have seen on this post seems to point to one or more problems with the gas valve. The wiring terminals on the gas valve should be marked ( MV- MV/PV- PV ) for Main Valve -Main Valve/Pilot Valve which would be 24V common - Pilot Valve. The Pilot Valve and the Main Valve operate independently. The Main Valve will not open until a pilot flame has been proven. I think that the Gas technician was measuring at access to the Main Valve/Manifold pressure tap which would read 0" WC until the pilot flame was proven. If the gas valve regulator is allowing too high of a pressure through, It might result in a difficult to ignite pilot flame and also a gross overfiring ( could cause the knocking) if the pilot flame did actually establish. The fact that it will fire when you throttle the gas shutoff valve seems to confirm this somewhat. As a suggestion, I would have a qualified technician set the gas valve internal regulator to a minimum setting and try to adjust up from there to a setting of 4.0" WC while attempting to fire the heater. There is also the possibility of a gas valve internal regulator being defective and not allowing adjustment. If it still exhibits the same problems, have the technician remove the pilot tubing at the gas valve and take a pressure measurement at the pilot tubing access on the gas valve to see if the pilot is seeing excess pressure above 4.0" WC. If you have this done, you will either be able to adjust to the correct gas valve outlet pressure or definitively prove that the gas valve is defective.