New Pool in Houston, TX - Completed August 2021

[travelfeedsthesoul]

Hello all,

We just sign with our PB in Houston, TX and I wanted to post our pools specifics and design to see if you guys can help us avoid mistakes or think of things we missed.

We have two little girls (almost 3 and 6) and are typically the hosting party for family events. No one is a diver and the pool is primarily for leisure and cooling off during the brutal summers we have here in Houston. Also, it helps beautify our backyard into a personal oasis.

Our youngest girl (3yo) has some eczema/dry skin and slightly thinner hair than her older sister and mom. Hence my wife wanted to keep the pool with as few chemicals as possible so we opted for the UV cleaner. PB did not recommend SWG due to the natural stones we want in our design.

Also, I'm super busy with my day job and my separate business and so will not have much time for maintenance, but we want to avoid a pool guy, so we opted for the in-floor cleaning to help reduce the weekly work. I do take great pride in keeping my lawn and house maintained, so I have no doubt I will take care of our pool. I just want to make it easy on myself and get to enjoying the pool more often than cleaning it.

As you can see from the renderings, the pool will have some stacked stone walls, natural rock walls, waterfall/weeping walls, a 18" raised spa (double as seating for those that aren't in the water), and a 4ft wide fire strip. I'm attached some images here but not all finalized. The rock pictures are to just show you the color of natural rocks we like instead of the brown rock color.

High level Pool specs

Free form pool and round spa
90' perimeter for pool
Approx 17,000 gallons
2 Jandy VS Plus Pumps Variable Speed 2.7 (listed in separate sections below so wanted to specify here)

DIMENSIONS POOL SPA

MAX. WIDTH 19.00 7.00
MAX. LENGTH 35.50 7.00
Depth 1 3.50 N/A
Depth 2 6.00 N/A
AVERAGE DEPTH 4.75 3.50
PERIMETER 90.00 22.00
SURFACE AREA 460.00 38.00
INTERIOR AREA 887.50 115.00

More specific details are further below, but here's what we're trying to get and do:

An oasis pool feeling with some transitional styling. We plan on getting Moss Rock or something else but with a less brown color and more closer to gray/browns and neutrals. Do you guys think this will be hard to get? I saw some at a stone store and will try to post pictures of that here.

Now for the more specific details directly from the PB (I'm just looking for someone with experience who can advise if we over-looked something obvious):

EXCAVATION - DEPTH
- 3.5' to 6 Foot Depth (are these depths good for us? I'm 5'8" and wife is 5'3" and tallest person in our extended family is 6'. We wanted 6 ft deep end so we can still jump (not dive) in.

MAIN DRAIN FOR POOL
- Dedicated Suction to pump measurement from drain to equipment 2.5in pipe (29 ft)

SKIMMER
- Ultra Quickskim Skimmer 3/4in ball valve 1
- Main Skimmer Run Total 2" and 1" pipe (22 ft)
- Pool Cleaner line on all pools 1.5in pipe (25 ft)

POOL RETURN(S) AND TYPE AND OVERFLOW
- Overflow City/County

FILL TYPES MUST PICK ONE
- Auto Fill Line (68 ft)

PLUMBING PIPE(S)
- 3" (30 ft) I think this may be the conduit I have PB running from one side to the other, close to the house

MAIN POOL PUMP
- Jandy VS Plus Pump Variable Speed 2.7 THP 150 gpm at 50 ft. (Includes required GFCI Breaker)
150 gpm at 50 ft. of head 1 ea.

FILTER TYPE(S)
- Cartridge 460 sq.ft. max flow 150 gpm 1 ea.

LIGHTING (2 in in pool, 1 in spa)
- Jandy Watercolor 12V. LED Pool Light (1)
- Nicheless LED 12v 24 watts light (1)
- 300 Watt Transformer 1 ea.
- Water Bonding Nicheless Light 1

TIMERS AND AUTOMATION
- I-Q904 Pool Spa I-Aqualink
I want to be able to control the Sheer Waterfall + Weeping Walls together but the bubblers separately. Additionally, the spa jets, etc. should be a sperate control. So I should be able to turn on/off the waterfalls and bubblers separately.
(Apparently there is confusion amongst PBs whereas my PB said the I-Q904 should be able to do what I intend, while the other PB who was bidding said it won't be able to separately control the Waterfalls and the Bubblers. Anyone here has any thoughts on this?

- Valve Actuator (1)
- Switch to turn on and off booster pumps and or lights at equipment (1)
- Switch to turn on and off booster pumps and or lights at location other than equipment put footage (17 ft)

HEATERS - HEAT PUMPS - CHILLERS
- 400,000 BTU GAS Heater and non corrosive check valve
Client understand they must get gas meter upgraded at their expense (what is the cost of this in Houston area?)

GUNITE
How many yards of raised wall over normal thickness per yard (1 yard)

GUNITE - STEPS-BENCHES-TANNING SHELVE(S) & BEACH ENTRY
Tanning Shelf (ea) 1 ea.
Bench #1 (per ft.) 10 ft.

RAISED WALLS 12 INCH (PER LN.FT.)
- 12" Raised Wall Steel and Gunite (2 at 5 ft each)
- 18" Raised Wall Steel and Gunite (7 ft)

RAISED WALLS COPING
- 16X16 SHELL BEACH PAVERS
Buyer agrees that natural stones can vary in shades any stone with a hole the size of a quarter or smaller is considered acceptable

RAISED WALLS VENEERING (PER SQ.FT)
- 2X4 NORDIC SILVER (SILVER) SPLITFACE (KSSF24-13)


UTILITIES GAS COUNTY
- Gas Line (per ft. plus 5' for ups and downs - Includes up to 10 FT & Gas Valve Regulator
- Go back to hook up gas line after upgrade meter installed

POOL COPING (PER LNFT)
- 12X12 SHELL BEACH PAVERS
- Buyer agrees that natural stones can vary in shades any stone with a hole the size of a quarter or smaller is considered acceptable

POOL WATERLINE (SQ.FT)
- Aquabella NL-1131
Water line tile 27 sq.ft.

TILE AND COPING - GROUT COLOR,CUTS AND EXTRAS
- Colored Grout Coping
Colored Grout: 03 Silk (Sugar Cookie)
1 Included
- Colored Grout Tile
Colored Grout: 78 Sterling Silver (Silver Shimmer)
1 Included

DECKING AND DRAINAGE
- Mastic 1 ea.
- Deck Coating per sq.ft. 400 sq.ft. min.
- Deck Coating Color: Limestone 442 sqft
- Deck Coating Topping per sq.ft.
- Deck Coating Color: Limestone 122 sq.ft.
- Volleyball Cup/Umbrella Hole in Sunshelf
- Deck Crew to do 4" Area Drains With Downspout Connection

SPA'S
- Standard 7' Spa With 4 Jets Venturi with 1hp Blower 1 ea.
- Extra Spa Jet for standard spa 2 ea.
- Spa Rolled Beam 1 ea.
- Spa Plumbing Runs 67 ln. ft.

SPA COPING (PER LNFT)
- 12X12 SHELL BEACH PAVERS
- Buyer agrees that natural stones can vary in shades any stone with a hole the size of a quarter or smaller is considered acceptable. 18 LnFt

SPA TILE LINE (PER SQ.FT)
- Aquabella NL-1131
Water line tile 11 sq.ft.

SPA LIGHT (ONE MUST BE PURCHASED)
- 12watt MINI Color LED Light for Spa 1 ea.

RAISED SPA'S
- Spa Raised 18in. w/2" check valve - Steel, Gunite and Plumbing 1 ea.

SPA VENEER (PER SQFT)
- 2X4 NORDIC SILVER (SILVER) SPLITFACE (KSSF24-13)
Splitface 33 sq.ft.

SPA SPILLWAYS
30 degree Negative Edge Spillway (4ft)

SPA SPILLWAY TILE (PER SQ.FT.)
- Aquabella NL-1131
- Water line tile 12 sq.ft.

FIRE PITS
- Linear inside dimension 7" by 48" 12" high Key Valve Match Light

FIRE PITS COPING (PER LNFT)
- 12X24 SHELL BEACH PAVERS
- Buyer agrees that natural stones can vary in shades any stone with a hole the size of a quarter or smaller is considered acceptable

FIRE PITS VENEER (PER SQ.FT)
- 2X4 NORDIC SILVER (SILVER) SPLITFACE (KSSF24-13)
Splitface 20 sq.ft.


LAVA ROCK
- 50 lb. Box of 1 to 2” Black Lava Rock (1)

FIRE GLASS
- Pepper (Black) Reflective Fireglass 3/8in to 1/2in, 40 lb Case (1)

WATER FEATURES
- Gushers/Bubblers (need 18 gpm per gusher)(ea.) (3)
- Loop Plumbing 2.5" Pipe to 1.5" Pipe 54 per.ft.

SHEERS
- Sheer Descent 3' (need 45 gpm) 1 ea.
- Sheer Descent Plumbing Run 1' to 6' 1.5" pipe 54 ln.ft.

MOSS ROCK WATER FEATURES
- Weeping Wall (per ln. ft.) 1 ton every 7 feet 14 per.ft.
- Weeping Wall Plumbing 1.5" pipe 66 ln.ft.
- # of Weepers (need 8 gpm for each weeper)(ea.) 5 ea.

WATER FEATURES PUMP(S)
- Jandy VS Plus Pump Variable Speed 2.7 THP 150 gpm at 40 ft. - (Water Feature)
- 2.5in. Suction Line for Booster Pump 140gpm

FITTINGS COLOR
- Grey Fittings

INTERIOR SURFACE
- Pebble Sheen Blue Surf

SANITIZERS
- Inline Chlorinator
- Bioshield UV

AUTOMATIC POOL CLEANERS
A&A In floor Cleaning System
A&A Cleaning and In Floor System Plumbing Runs 2" pipe

Hopefully I'm not forgetting anything but please ask away so I can double check anything concerning.

Thanks in advance for all your help!

Traveler

 

[gingrbredman]

Really like the design! That will be great for a hot Houston summer!

A couple things that stuck out to me in no particular order.

Hence my wife wanted to keep the pool with as few chemicals as possible so we opted for the UV cleaner. PB did not recommend SWG due to the natural stones we want in our design.

I have a feeling the opposite will happen as a result of the UV "Cleaner". Texas PBs just love to sell what the sun already provides for some reason. The problem with a system like that, is it really doesn't do much to "clean" at all. Too many factors etc. etc., but in the end, because your pool won't get the proper sanitization, you will be forced to use more liquid chlorine, thus adding more chemicals to the pool. I'm not from Texas, but I do follow all the build threads because I love learning about all this stuff, and if you do the same, you will find the "UV Cleaner" is all fluff and no stuff.

PB did not recommend SWG due to the natural stones we want in our design

The other thing I've learned, is there a lot of PBs who seem allergic to SW pools and will give you all kinds of reasons why they are bad. This time it is the natural stone. The next build will be because of equipment corrosion, and then another excuse. I believe they just do not want to change and adapt to newer technologies, like the big pool companies have, Jandy, Pentair, Hayward all have salt water chlorine generators, but man, the PBs must know something they do not. From all the research I've done, a properly maintained SW pool will be gentler on the skin, hair, etc., not the opposite, and will be a great pool for years to come. I'm sure others with much more experience with Texas SW pools will chime in.

I really like the detail provided here and don't want to be all negative, just those things you mentioned don't align with all the experience and builds I've seen here in my short stay.

 

[travelfeedsthesoul]

gingrbred - Thanks for the comments and advice. I do feel that the UV may not be of much use to us in Houston since the sun is blazing from Apr - Oct. I did not think about the UV system could potentially destroy the Chlorine faster which will require more Chlorine...? Is that what you're trying to say?

Anyone in the Houston area specifically that can concur?

 

[Dtkokay]

You definitely want two skimmers, at opposite ends of the pool. And these ends should be the most common wind directions. For example, if your wind most commonly blows from the east, you’ll want your skimmers on the east and west ends of the pool (or approximately those locations).

Skip the UV cleaner and put that money towards a salt water chlorine system. I highly encourage you to research SWCG. They actually allow you to run a lower level of chlorine compared to tablet feeders, which may be especially important in your situation with a child who has sensitive skin. Plus, if you plan to take care of the pool yourself, SWCG makes it sooooo much easier, especially when you leave town for vacation.

I would reconsider the in floor cleaning system. They’re convenient but are not exactly known to be reliable. Most folks here use an electric robot (around $700) that cleans the floors and picks up debris. I didn’t see it in your email, but don’t bother with a pool cleaner that is powered by the pool pump. They don’t work as well and rely on the pool pump. The electric robots are far superior.

 

[gingrbredman]

From what I've seen here, from a lot of experienced owners of pools, and pretty smart water experts, the UV system wont do much of anything at any time during the year. Apr-Oct for sure you'll have all the UV you can enjoy, but even in the other months, the UV system is almost universally viewed as a money maker for PBs and does nothing for your water. Since it does nothing, you will be adding other chemicals to find a good chemistry.

I see you also have an inline chlorinator which I'm guessing is a tab feeder. That alone is going to add more chemicals to the water than aren't necessary. When it comes to water quality, I'd for sure listen to what the people around here have to say rather than 99% of all pool builders. That design you showed really is stunning! I've seen awesome pools built by really great builders. But that's what they do best. When it comes to water, they really do not know as much as they should. They build the pool, and if it comes out looking like the renderings you have, wow! but then you are the one managing the chemistry and keeping it perfect for your family. Lobbying against SW as a pool builder, adding a tab feeder, and recommending a UV system would be a dis-service to you as a customer. There are just better ways to have a trouble free pool. SWCG is one of the best, especially from everything you said about your family. Regular, liquid chlorine additions would be #2, a lot of people do that as well and it works. You won't find one person here who has a UV system and raves about it.

I would be so excited to have a pool look like the one you are about to build, and the perfect pool would be to ditch the in line chlorinator and UV gizmo, and go with a SWCG. You want trouble free? That's the sweeet spot.

 

[travelfeedsthesoul]

Thanks Dtkokay.

I asked my PB about the number of skimmers, and he said for my pool, 1 skimmer is fine, since they are using the Venturi skimmer. He said it would go in the deep end (opposite of the Spa end). Is this not right for an approximately 17K gal pool? Do you think I should absolutely get a 2nd skimmer and just pay for it? How much does it typically cost to add a skimmer?

I've heard and read multiple threads with SWG pools and where some are saying great things about them, while others say not to get them. I will ask my PB again of what he thinks. I asked all 3 PBs that bid for my build about SWG and all of them did not recommend for me. They are significantly higher priced? Interesting...

I will talk to the wife about in-floor again, but I think we will stick with the in-floor since her co-worker recently got a pool from the same PB with the same in-floor cleaning and she raves about it.

 

[travelfeedsthesoul]

From what I've seen here, from a lot of experienced owners of pools, and pretty smart water experts, the UV system wont do much of anything at any time during the year. Apr-Oct for sure you'll have all the UV you can enjoy, but even in the other months, the UV system is almost universally viewed as a money maker for PBs and does nothing for your water. Since it does nothing, you will be adding other chemicals to find a good chemistry.

I see you also have an inline chlorinator which I'm guessing is a tab feeder. That alone is going to add more chemicals to the water than aren't necessary. When it comes to water quality, I'd for sure listen to what the people around here have to say rather than 99% of all pool builders. That design you showed really is stunning! I've seen awesome pools built by really great builders. But that's what they do best. When it comes to water, they really do not know as much as they should. They build the pool, and if it comes out looking like the renderings you have, wow! but then you are the one managing the chemistry and keeping it perfect for your family. Lobbying against SW as a pool builder, adding a tab feeder, and recommending a UV system would be a dis-service to you as a customer. There are just better ways to have a trouble free pool. SWCG is one of the best, especially from everything you said about your family. Regular, liquid chlorine additions would be #2, a lot of people do that as well and it works. You won't find one person here who has a UV system and raves about it.

I would be so excited to have a pool look like the one you are about to build, and the perfect pool would be to ditch the in line chlorinator and UV gizmo, and go with a SWCG. You want trouble free? That's the sweeet spot.

Do you think SWCGs are appropriate for me with when I have those natural rocks and travertine coping around the pool?

 

[travelfeedsthesoul]

Also, how much Salt would I need per month for a 17,000 gallon pool? Are the chemicals costs savings offset by the salt bags?

 

[HermanTX]

Hi fellow Houstonian. You have definitely come to the right forum for excellent recommendations and feedback on any pool related matters. You have a beautiful design.

With regard to UV systems, there was a recent discussion on that in another pool build but I cannot find it. Basically there were lots of discussion on the merits of a UV system and you still have to maintain a specific level of chlorine in the pool. The key point was that the UV light kills the bacteria as the water passes through it but you need chlorine in the pool to sanitize that large body of water on a consistent basis. So you still have to add chlorine (via the inline chlorinator the PB included) which is a maintenance task. If the PB is implying you add the chlorine by use of pucks (again the inline chlorinator) then that also adds CYA to your water which creates a whole set of issues in the longer term.

I use liquid chlorine because I have not converted yet to salt system - but that is my next upgrade. I have flagstone as coping and as water tile and not concerned about the salt system. I feel it would be less maintenance and best for your body to go with a SWCG system. FWIW, I have a doctor friend who is putting in a pool and he without any doubt said he would only go with a saltwater pool because it is better on the body & skin. You will need to keep a salt level of 3000 to 3500ppm to operate the SWCG. Salt is cheap . BTW, that brings up another point - do you have a water softener for your home? If so, you will need to figure out if your pool will use that as fill water. No real issues other then you will not be adding calcium so you will need to add that separately. Just need to know that in advance.

I have a 14k gal pool with 2 skimmers - definitely get 2 skimmers. The cost is minimal and manual skimming is a task that you want to minimize. Ensure that each skimmer is plumbed back to the equipment pad with independent lines as this provides better control of how each skimmer functions. For the last 2 months I have had both my skimmer baskets full with leaves.

There are pros and cons to infloor cleaning system. Remember the little jets just push debris to main drain which is captured by the filter. Just ensure you have a valve on it at the equipment pad so if you change your mind or have issues then you can isolate it. A robot physically runs around the pool to pick up debris and you have to empty the net on the cleaner.

It is great that you have a separate circulation system for your water features.
Jandy is good equipment.
Good Luck.

 

[Dtkokay]

I highly recommend two skimmers. I think you’ll find it frustrating to have a bunch of debris on top of the water at one end of the pool while your skimmer is on the other end. Even a tiny bit of wind will blow debris from one side of your pool to the other. Unless you’re lucky with one skimmer and happen to place it in the correction location is your most common downwind direction. Even then, wind directions change.

The SWCG isn’t really a money saver - it’s a convenience saver that also makes pool management easier. The cost of salt is negligible. Salt isn’t consumed by the pool, like chlorine. You’ll add a bunch of salt when the pool is new and maybe need to add a few bags a year due to rainfall. A bag is may $7 at Home Depot.

My coping and decking is travertine and I’ve never noticed any issues with salt, or any salt buildup. Keep in mind that the amount of salt in a salt water pool is around 10% of the amount found in the ocean.

Also, the salt system is just two pieces of equipment added to your pool: a salt cell and a controller. That‘s it. Otherwise everything else is like a normal pool. You don’t need special plaster or anything else to have a salt system. It’s just that the SWCG makes chlorine for you automatically, instead you having to keep feeding chlorine tablets (which can lead to other problems).

 

[Turbo1Ton]

I seem to be a different breed about the IFCS than others. I have only had mine for a year, but I love it. Yes it uses more energy, because you have to run the pump longer (or at a higher speed, in my case), but I am not out there pulling up a robot and cleaning filters out of it several times a week. I opted for UV and Ozone on my pool, and promptly removed those devices within several months of operation. Admittedly, I did not do enough research on those prior to buying. My PB didn't push them, just offered them as an option, and I bit on it.

A&A designed my system with 2 skimmers. Mine is a 14k gallon pool. Make sure that when the plumber plumbs them back to the pad, they do both skimmers. My PB only did one, as per the A&A plans, and I wish I had known to have them do both. This way if one of them ever has an issue, I could use the other one.

If you are going to go with the IFCS, make sure that your PB puts in a bypass, so that you can turn off the IFCS zone valves if you want to. Maybe you are having a problem with it, maybe you want to not use it while people are in the pool, whatever. If they don't, the only return to the pool is through the floor popups and they will continually be going. People will stub their toes, etc.

For sure get a SWCG. If you want minimal maintenance, that is the way to go. It produces the chlorine for your pool instead of you having to pour in liquid chlorine every other day. That will get old in the summer time. I am using liquid chlorine during the winter, since the SWCG does not produce at low temps, but it is once a week. And it is not a lot. During the summer, chlorine consumption is up there, and you will be adding it a lot.

--Jeff

 

[ap2002]

welcome to the forum.... another houston area member myself....

This forum is awesome with alot of great people willing to offer all the help.... keep reading and gaining knowledge.... nothing is hard about maintaining your own pool...

-Yes, ditch the UV ozone gadget, it is a complete waste...
-Definatley get a SWG, best decision i ever made on my previous pool, makes maintenance super easy.....
-2 skimmers is a great idea, i would add that second one for a piece of mind.
-I have no advice IFCS,

 

[travelfeedsthesoul]

Thanks for the advice folks. I'll check with the PB on all of these suggestions. Our PB is actually one of the largest PBs in the Houston area (top 5) so I figure they do have some experience after building so many pools each year.

 

[travelfeedsthesoul]

What are yalls thoughts on umbrella holes in the decking around the pool? We will have the cool deck and the costs to add the holes is minimal, ~$40. I was thinking this will help eliminate the need for umbrella stands but I'm not sure about algae, mold, etc. growing in the holes if not used. Also, can this cause damage to the decking if someone shoves the umbrella down too hard?

Secondly, any thoughts on adding Shimmering Seas to the Pebble Sheen Blue Surf color? I asked my PB the cost to add it, and he said the quote came back at $1,290. That seems really high to me after reading other posts here where people seem to get it for $300 or within that ballpark. Was that several years ago pricing?

thanks

 

[travelfeedsthesoul]

Hi all,

Please see attached. Our free form pool is approximately 35' x 14.5' (on average). We love the natural shape of the pool and want to keep it this way. However, I think maybe after seeing some of our friend's pools, this is looking like it may be too narrow for our liking.

Here's the story. One of my friend's pool is a rectangular pool and 40' x 20', so it looks quite large. We were okay with getting something slightly smaller and so figured our pool design was appropriate. Then, my other friend's pool was recently completed and his is also a rectangular pool but it is 35 x 13.5'. After seeing his, I started fretting since to me it seems really narrow (wife wasn't there to see it). Granted, his width was even less on one side where he had his tanning shelf, so about 7 foot of the left side is 12' foot wide instead of the 13.5'. He did not have a spa and neither did he have landscaping completed. Maybe this is causing the pool to not look as attractive?

Now, my concern with our design is that the narrowest point as per my PB is about 12' 3". Also, I'm not sure if I'd measure the widest point like the way he does in the picture attached.

What is the narrowest point on your pool?

Based on my design (attached), do you think this at the 12'3" point is too narrow or something to worry about? I just don't want the pool looking too narrow/slim.

 

[TexasRain]

Maybe you could lay out some hoses in your yard for the designed shape of the pool (or at least close) and see how it looks, or you can move the hoses in your yard to what you think you would like, THEN measure and see what you came up with.

 

[HermanTX]

Seeing where your narrowest part is located near your steps and sun deck, it may not feel as small as you think. However, if you have the capability (space & $$$) to go larger then do it. Mine is freeform and my narrowest is 13ft 10in. with total of 14,600 gals.

Actually, go back to your friend's house with a tape measure and put your minimum width and stand in the pool to get a feel. This way you have the perception of water.

 

[travelfeedsthesoul]

Thanks Herman. So my space is limiting me some, however the PB said we have about 12" of the back raised wall towards the easement. This would essentially get me an additional 1 foot on average onto the entire width. The cost he estimates would be about $2K to do this. I'll have a Zoom call with him to go over this to ensure the shape is mostly retained after making it wider.

 

[Krysib]

Houston area owner here.

I can most definitely confirm that the use of the ozone system results in more chlorine required. We turned our ozone system off promptly after our build due to this. It’s hard enough to keep up with chlorine demand in TX August sun!

Just added our SWG this winter after ignoring our in-line chlorinator and manually dosing last year with liquid chlorine

 

[travelfeedsthesoul]

Really considering removing the UV system (saving $1100) but don't want to go to a SWCG as I know multiple people here in Houston who said the system did deteriorate their natural stones.

If I want to keep a Chlorine pool and NOT a SWCG, does having the UV system help? I hear that although the natural sun UV rays help, the UV system can help in other ways like at times when there isn't sun or even helping get rid of the chloramines that cause the "chlorine smell".

Finally, if you suggest getting rid of the UV system and just keeping the pool a simple Chlorine pool, what all do I need to do on a weekly basis. Just looking for a starting point and then I can research here all the details all you wonderful folks keep posting for us noobs to use.

Thanks,
Traveler