New pool heater install question

fab68

Active member
Sep 4, 2012
30
Mcallen, Texas
I recently purchased and had a new heater install. My question is, I have two pumps. One feeds the pool and the other the infloor cleaning system. The pool heater sends hot water to the wall jets and the water falls. I asked the pool builder why I do not have the in floor pop up valves throw hot water and was told that is not possible. Wanted your opinion as I feel there has to be a way. The water cleaning system could help me warm the water faster. All pumps are labeled for easy viewing. Any recommendations on the install? Is my ask possible with the current lay out ? Thank you in advance!
 

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HermanTX

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Couple of questions
It shows Skimmer 1 is connected to both pumps for suction. 2 different pumps should not draw suction from the same pipe at the same time - what has the PB said about how to control that?
Also, why did the PB connect the waterfall to the main filter pump? It can be done with a single pump, but you have that other pump that could have been used.
It is shown you have "sprays" on the return of both pumps. Are these different sprays - how will you use them? Where are they located?

Maybe show a picture of the pool with all of these features.
 

DavidArmenB

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Sep 7, 2022
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Santa Clarita, CA
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Perhaps he said what he said because it is recommended that the water going into the heater pass first through the filter. The other pump does not have a filter.
 

ajw22

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The water cleaning system could help me warm the water faster.


The water will heat at the fixed rate of the heater BTUs.

It does not matter which pump adds the BTUs to the pool water. The pool heats at the same rate.

Running the water cleaning system can circulate the water better and even out the water temperature between the warm water areas and cold water areas as the pool heats. That can be done without the heater being on that system.
 

1poolman1

In The Industry
Jul 14, 2014
2,891
Sacramento
I recently purchased and had a new heater install. My question is, I have two pumps. One feeds the pool and the other the infloor cleaning system. The pool heater sends hot water to the wall jets and the water falls. I asked the pool builder why I do not have the in floor pop up valves throw hot water and was told that is not possible. Wanted your opinion as I feel there has to be a way. The water cleaning system could help me warm the water faster. All pumps are labeled for easy viewing. Any recommendations on the install? Is my ask possible with the current lay out ? Thank you in advance!
You want filtered water going through the heater. Also, as the in-floor distribution valve opens and closes ports, the flow can vary considerably (actually nearly a dead-dead condition very briefly) and would, likely, cause the heater to cycle on and off continually.
If you have a pool cleaner, other than a robotic, it will help get the water and heat circulated well.
 
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1poolman1

In The Industry
Jul 14, 2014
2,891
Sacramento
I recently purchased and had a new heater install. My question is, I have two pumps. One feeds the pool and the other the infloor cleaning system. The pool heater sends hot water to the wall jets and the water falls. I asked the pool builder why I do not have the in floor pop up valves throw hot water and was told that is not possible. Wanted your opinion as I feel there has to be a way. The water cleaning system could help me warm the water faster. All pumps are labeled for easy viewing. Any recommendations on the install? Is my ask possible with the current lay out ? Thank you in advance!
Just really looked at the pictures. For the sake of your heater (and bank account), please DO NOT use that inline tablet feeder. It will cause severe damage to the heater eventually unless your pump NEVER shuts off (and I wouldn't trust it even then).
 
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fab68

Active member
Sep 4, 2012
30
Mcallen, Texas
Here are additional pics
Couple of questions
It shows Skimmer 1 is connected to both pumps for suction. 2 different pumps should not draw suction from the same pipe at the same time - what has the PB said about how to control that?
Also, why did the PB connect the waterfall to the main filter pump? It can be done with a single pump, but you have that other pump that could have been used.
It is shown you have "sprays" on the return of both pumps. Are these different sprays - how will you use them? Where are they located?

Maybe show a picture of the pool with all of these features.
Hello HermanTX - appreciate the response. I am not an expert but will do my beat to answer. I am not sure on why the BP used two different pumps to draw suction from the same pipe or why the waterfall is connected to the main filter pump. Does it make a difference if I have an inflow cleaning system? Paramount PCC2000 with two constant on large pop up valves at the deep end? Let me share a pics of the water features on. Does this gives you more insight ?
Couple of questions
It shows Skimmer 1 is connected to both pumps for suction. 2 different pumps should not draw suction from the same pipe at the same time - what has the PB said about how to control that?
Also, why did the PB connect the waterfall to the main filter pump? It can be done with a single pump, but you have that other pump that could have been used.
It is shown you have "sprays" on the return of both pumps. Are these different sprays - how will you use them? Where are they located?

Maybe show a picture of the pool with all of these features.
Thank you HermanTx- I am not an expert but I believe Bp said because of the water features and In floor cleaning system. I have the sprays on n one pump and water cascade on the filter water pump. I hope you can see it on n the pic. Here is a pic of the water features . In the pic a turn on sprays on the sun deck and water falls.
 

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fab68

Active member
Sep 4, 2012
30
Mcallen, Texas
Perhaps he said what he said because it is recommended that the water going into the heater pass first through the filter. The other pump does not have a filter.
Hello DavidArmenB - actually that is exactly what he said but I am not sure I understand why the issue with filtered water. Would it not be the same ? Is it because unfiltered water will damage the pool heater?
 

fab68

Active member
Sep 4, 2012
30
Mcallen, Texas
The water will heat at the fixed rate of the heater BTUs.

It does not matter which pump adds the BTUs to the pool water. The pool heats at the same rate.

Running the water cleaning system can circulate the water better and even out the water temperature between the warm water areas and cold water areas as the pool heats. That can be done without the heater being on that system.
Thank ajw22 - So adding additional flow of heated water will not = faster heating time as BTU remain the same. I think I follow. So the current pop up valves although they are not putting out hot water it still circulates the water in the pool for an even ten across the pool ?
 

fab68

Active member
Sep 4, 2012
30
Mcallen, Texas
You want filtered water going through the heater. Also, as the in-floor distribution valve opens and closes ports, the flow can vary considerably (actually nearly a dead-dead condition very briefly) and would, likely, cause the heater to cycle on and off continually.
If you have a pool cleaner, other than a robotic, it will help get the water and heat circulated well.
Thank you 1poolman1 - "as the in-floor distribution valve opens and closes ports, the flow can vary considerably (actually nearly a dead-dead condition very briefly) and would, likely, cause the heater to cycle on and off continually" I am not sure I follow. So the in floor cleaning system has to cycle and as it does it could shut down the pool heater ? Is it because of lack of floe of water ?
 

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HermanTX

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May 20, 2020
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Katy TX
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Paramount PCC2000 with two constant on large pop up valves at the deep end?
Is this the pipe marked Main Drain Sprays on the return side? If so, you say they are constant on, however they have a valve (which shows to be open) but it can be turned to close them off. Do you constantly keep this valve open to circulate/clean deep end?

I am not sure on why the BP used two different pumps to draw suction from the same pipe or why the waterfall is connected to the main filter pump.
I would just ask the PB is there any guidelines as to how you should operate the pumps since they have a common suction line. Such as, if both pumps are ON, should one of the valves from Skimmer 1 be closed or is it fine to leave both valves open when both pumps are on? I just don't want you to starve one of the pumps so you should as a minimum have both the main drain open and skimmer 2 open if you are operating both pumps simultaneously.

In the pic a turn on sprays on the sun deck and water falls.
Can you confirm that the sprays on the sun deck are controlled by the pipe on the far right marked SPRAYS? This would be on the pump without the filter.
 

1poolman1

In The Industry
Jul 14, 2014
2,891
Sacramento
Thank you 1poolman1 - "as the in-floor distribution valve opens and closes ports, the flow can vary considerably (actually nearly a dead-dead condition very briefly) and would, likely, cause the heater to cycle on and off continually" I am not sure I follow. So the in floor cleaning system has to cycle and as it does it could shut down the pool heater ? Is it because of lack of floe of water ?
Flow drops below minimum heater requirement, pressure switch opens, heater stops firing, flow increases, pressure switch closes, heater fires, ad infinitum.

There is a brief moment in the cycle of the in-floor valve that flow almost stops entirely (dead head).
 

ajw22

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Jul 21, 2013
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Thank ajw22 - So adding additional flow of heated water will not = faster heating time as BTU remain the same. I think I follow.

Correct.

So the current pop up valves although they are not putting out hot water it still circulates the water in the pool for an even ten across the pool ?

Yes.
 

Turbo1Ton

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Dec 26, 2019
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There is a brief moment in the cycle of the in-floor valve that flow almost stops entirely (dead head).
I am not certain which IFCS valve you are talking about but I would suspect they all function similar to my A&A, where the next zone begins opening as the previous zone starts closing. So there is a moment when you are splitting flow to 2 zones, and never a chance of dead heading the flow.

--Jeff
 

proavia

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There is a brief moment in the cycle of the in-floor valve that flow almost stops entirely (dead head).

I am not certain which IFCS valve you are talking about but I would suspect they all function similar to my A&A, where the next zone begins opening as the previous zone starts closing. So there is a moment when you are splitting flow to 2 zones, and never a chance of dead heading the flow.

--Jeff

I agree with @Turbo1Ton . I also have an A&A system. When one zone is almost finished and another starts, the filter pressure actually drops (less restriction). No chance of deadheading (unless something in the system breaks). Other IFCS may be different.

Maybe @fab68 can fill out their signature to include info on pool, pool equipment (manufacturers and model numbers) and test kit. This will assist us in providing answers specifid to their pool.
 

1poolman1

In The Industry
Jul 14, 2014
2,891
Sacramento
I agree with @Turbo1Ton . I also have an A&A system. When one zone is almost finished and another starts, the filter pressure actually drops (less restriction). No chance of deadheading (unless something in the system breaks). Other IFCS may be different.

Maybe @fab68 can fill out their signature to include info on pool, pool equipment (manufacturers and model numbers) and test kit. This will assist us in providing answers specifid to their pool.
Please, check out a few older Care Taker and Paramount systems. Watch the pressure gauges bounce from high to low and the pipes shake as the ports close and open.
If a pool with an IFCS was able to be heated, builders would add a few conventional return lines and a valve to bypass the distribution valve so there would be no issue with the heater cycling as the valve changed ports. Obviously an added expense.
Newer pools may be different, don't see a lot of IFCS installed here any more.
 

DavidArmenB

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2022
47
Santa Clarita, CA
Pool Size
15000
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Plaster
Chlorine
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SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Hello DavidArmenB - actually that is exactly what he said but I am not sure I understand why the issue with filtered water. Would it not be the same ? Is it because unfiltered water will damage the pool heater?
I don’t know the exact scientific reason but my take is that the heat exchanger inside the heater has small copper piping which are only 1/2” or 1/4” in diameter with a large surface area and multiple 180 degree turns. It would be extremely easy for debris such as leaves, sand, dirt, rocks, dust, incoming from the unfiltered pool water to get stuck inside the copper piping of the heat exchanger and cause blockages. Even if no immediate blockages are caused say from a small rock, debris can still build up in the small pipes over time and cause flow issues and/or blockages, vastly decreasing the heater life expectancy.
You want clean filtered water to pass through those small pipes in the exchanger so there is no debris to get stuck inside, which would be very close to impossible to remove.
 

1poolman1

In The Industry
Jul 14, 2014
2,891
Sacramento
DavidArmenB is very correct. Below is picture of the heat exchanger in your heater. The tubes are about 1/2" internal diameter. There are also items in the manifold that need to move, the internal bypass valve and the thermal regulator. They could get clogged/damaged by larger debris in unfiltered water.

You will see that the exchanger is a copper alloy, a softer metal, even if it is cupro-nickel. The water moves through a heater at a relatively high velocity. Un-filtered pool water will have a lot of tiny debris that has continually fallen into the pool. It will act as an abrasive on that copper and can wear it away, especially right at the flange where the tubes are in a sheet of metal that is bolted to the manifold. You can find pictures of this type of damage online if you do a search.
1669318325343.png
 

DavidArmenB

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2022
47
Santa Clarita, CA
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
DavidArmenB is very correct. Below is picture of the heat exchanger in your heater. The tubes are about 1/2" internal diameter. There are also items in the manifold that need to move, the internal bypass valve and the thermal regulator. They could get clogged/damaged by larger debris in unfiltered water.

You will see that the exchanger is a copper alloy, a softer metal, even if it is cupro-nickel. The water moves through a heater at a relatively high velocity. Un-filtered pool water will have a lot of tiny debris that has continually fallen into the pool. It will act as an abrasive on that copper and can wear it away, especially right at the flange where the tubes are in a sheet of metal that is bolted to the manifold. You can find pictures of this type of damage online if you do a search.
View attachment 463616
I did not even think about abrasive damage due to unfiltered high velocity water. I think other than a major clog, that would be the biggest cause of reduction to heater life expectancy.
 
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