New In Ground Pool - NJ, Closing Time - have some questions

[ajw22]

Would it make a difference if the 1.5hp spa pump is closer to the pool?

No

 

[mas985]

The sizing of the pipe is related to the flow rate through it so it really doesn't matter what the length is although that does affect head loss.

All pool builders should be following APSP-7 recommendations. To reduce entrapment risks, the suction side plumbing should not exceed 6 ft/sec. That relates to only 63 GPM for 2" plumbing. That is why it is very important to design the spa to handle the desired flow rate and in order to do that, you need to know the number of spa jets being installed and the flow rate required per jet.

 

[jimmythegreek]

A Latham shell spa i did 2 years ago had 10 jets and 3" suction pipe amd 2.5" return pip if remember correctly. It came pre plumbed was a shell spa we surrounded it with boulder work as a spillover setup. An ecostars ran it pretty well but I wasnt impressed by the jet action. For what it ended up costing the overall build (north of 20k) my hot springs standalone spa blows it away. It did look nice though in a natural type landscape

 

[jonnyd91]

I will have to get more info on the spa this week.

@jimmythegreek or whoever else may know:

RE: Controller and pump

Its looking like this is going to go one of 2 ways, see if I can get a credit OR just buy what I want and replace what the PB installs.
My pool comes bundled with the Aqua-Logic, to upgrade to the Omni-Logic he wants 3500 additional, which means Im paying like 4200 for a controller.

1. Would swapping out the Pro-logic to an Omni-Logic or OmniPL pretty much be plug and play as far as the wiring is concerned? (e.g. all the relay boards and wire inputs should be similar)
2. Would the salt cell just unplug from the Aqua to the Omni (i think it does)
3. Are there any major differences between the OmniPL(1699) and the OmniLogic(1499)? I would just be buying the controller online and using the salt cell from their install. From my research it looks like the OmniPl is the newer model.

RE: VS Pump
I debating just letting them install the 2HP Super pump and then I will swap out to the tristar 2.7 myself. Im guessing that he is going to be in the 2kish range for that pump and its 1300 online.
For the hayward pumps if the plumbing size is the same i.e 2" would swapping them out pretty much be plug and play? do the inputs and outputs pretty much line up for all their pumps of similar size?

I also know i drop from a 3 yr warranty to a 1 yr if I buy this stuff online.

Just trying to get creative here to balance the budget. I really want the automation and app support given that my whole house is a smart house, and I see the reviews for app support on the Prologic isnt that great.

 

[mas985]

So which is he proposing AquaLogic, ProLogic or Aquaplus? AquaLogic has been discontinued for some time now.

1) They use different breaker boxes so it would require removing the entire unit and replacing it with another plus all the wiring. See if he will give a credit for no control unit.

2) Yes, the cell is the same between the two.

3) The descriptions and manuals are online: Pool Automation | In Ground Pool Automation - Hayward Pool Products

The SuperPump and TriStar have different port heights so it is not a simple swap. Plumbing would need to be rerouted. You might ask for a TriStar single speed and then it would be a simple swap. He shouldn't ask for much more.

The prices for these upgrades seem very high to me like he is taking advantage of you. What is the build status? Given this and the plumbing design, I might consider a different PB.

 

[jonnyd91]

So which is he proposing AquaLogic, ProLogic or Aquaplus? AquaLogic has been discontinued for some time now.

1) They use different breaker boxes so it would require removing the entire unit and replacing it with another plus all the wiring. See if he will give a credit for no control unit.

2) Yes, the cell is the same between the two.

3) The descriptions and manuals are online: Pool Automation | In Ground Pool Automation - Hayward Pool Products

The SuperPump and TriStar have different port heights so it is not a simple swap. Plumbing would need to be rerouted. You might ask for a TriStar single speed and then it would be a simple swap. He shouldn't ask for much more.

The prices for these upgrades seem very high to me like he is taking advantage of you. What is the build status? Given this and the plumbing design, I might consider a different PB.

Im ok, swapping out the breaker boxes. My BIL is an electrician and we both wired my entire basement a few years ago.
I skimmed through the manuals, couldnt for the life of me see any difference between the omnilogic and omniPL

He was proposing the Prologic that comes with the salt cell. They have only done one other omnilogic system, he pretty much deals solely with the prologic.
These guys are pretty good, these base pricing on the pool itself was very good and they dont charge a ton to upgrade size.

They charge 1600 for each additional color logic light, but that was really on par with other builders in the area. It almost seems like they just dont want to do the controller because its out of their norm.
The 300k hayward h series heater was 3100, which again was on par with other quotes here.

 

[mas985]

At least get him to draw up a schematic of the plumbing so we can review it. It is a common screw up by many PBs. Not surprising, we get many complaints on the forum of poor performing spas and water features but after the pool is built, it is almost impossible to fix without spending a lot of money.

BTW, the ProLogic is not a bad controller. Was there some feature of the OmniLogic that you wanted?

 

[jonnyd91]

At least get him to draw up a schematic of the plumbing so we can review it. It is a common screw up by many PBs. Not surprising, we get many complaints on the forum of poor performing spas and water features but after the pool is built, it is almost impossible to fix without spending a lot of money.

BTW, the ProLogic is not a bad controller. Was there some feature of the OmniLogic that you wanted?

I want to be able to control the pool from my phone. (app support for the prologic has pretty bad reviews) I also read the omnilogic plays better with the colorlogic lights.
I also would want to add remote valves in the future for the spa.

 

[mas985]

Ok but you can add the AquaConnect to the ProLogic for app control. ProLogic will also control the lights and valves.

 

[jonnyd91]

Ok but you can add the AquaConnect to the ProLogic for app control. ProLogic will also control the lights and valves.

I may just be picky on this. Im a Software Developer, the app support for the aquaconnect is nowhere near what the omni offers. It looks 10 years old. In addition it has to just work, especially if my wife will be using it too. I also plan to hardwire the ethernet connection as to not have to mess with wifi. So im basically giving myself this headache

 

[jimmythegreek]

I install a prologic on almost every build. For an average pool a PL8 is plenty. The remote pod or a wired wall remote is what I always do I have one on my own pool. I get the tech side of it but you really won't use the app much. For the money he wants on upgrades I would work on either having him give you credit, or small credit and he installs what you buy elsewhere. As Mas said get a detailed plumbing plan even if he just jots down what is going where amd pipe sizes. That's truly the most important part of the build. And FYI the Hayward lights aren't great neither are the other major brands. About a third dont make it out of the 3 yr warranty period in my experiences amd I'm a Hayward guy

 

[jonnyd91]

Ok so a little update:

I decided to just stick with the Pro-Logic controller for now and not drive myself crazy. I will run it for a season and if I really don't get the wireless support im looking for I will just purchase the omni logic and swap it out. Im sure I can sell the pro-logic for some cash. They want 3500 for the upgrade and it is not worth that much if I can just buy it for $1,500.

It seems the builder uses a standard set of equipment with their builds and the like to stay on that track.

I will also run their single speed super pump for the season and then look to upgrade to a Tristar VS. The VS they offer is the smaller pump and costs almost as much to upgrade as I can buy the tristar for online. Im not afraid of plumbing so I can easily swap that out myself for about 1300 bucks.

I upgraded to their DE filter with no charge so that seems like a no brainer.

I opted to pay the extra 1k labor to have them backfill the pool with gravel (I will supply the gravel) that 1k includes taking away all the dirt.

I updated my survey to kinda get an idea of where I want to put my pool shed and equipment. Goal is to block the filters with the shed. Shed will have a 3' overhang for some shade.
This also enable me to tether lighting and sound to the structure since the sub panel will be located right behind the shed and will be easy to wire.

I will be installing a 4' fence around the pool as I have small children. Looking to leave 3' on each side for some landscaping.
We are debating a modern waterfall, my idea was to add a 3' walkway behind it (curved) so we can walk behind it without being in the landscaping.

Pardon my crude drawing additions. What do you think?

 

[guinness]

Regarding pumps, did you see recommendation from mas to request the single speed TriStar instead? If you had unions installed it'll make the plumbing switch to Tristar VS easy. I wonder what the PB will offer once the new federal pump rules kick in July 2021?

Regarding tethering lighting and sound to the shed, how far will that be from the pool edge? The National Electrical Code states you'll need that 10 ft away, even for low voltage lighting. I think there were later revisions so you need to double check on that.

 

[jonnyd91]

Regarding pumps, did you see recommendation from mas to request the single speed TriStar instead? If you had unions installed it'll make the plumbing switch to Tristar VS easy. I wonder what the PB will offer once the new federal pump rules kick in July 2021?

Regarding tethering lighting and sound to the shed, how far will that be from the pool edge? The National Electrical Code states you'll need that 10 ft away, even for low voltage lighting. I think there were later revisions so you need to double check on that.

The builder sells the VS pump, I think the MaxFlo. I could upgrade to that but it would be 1050.00. Id rather get the tristar at a later date. re: SS Tristar. Im a believer that you have to pick your battles, they just don't sell that pump a lot in their builds. They sell a ton of 2hp super pumps. They prob just work and they dont get repair call on them. I know some VS pumps can be finicky. It would just be easier for me to adjust the pvc pipes.

Re: Lighting, I would just put a light fixture on the front of the shed kinda like the lights by the front door of the house. I can mess with the dimensions when we get closer to that point.
The panel will be over 10 ft away. I did however want to put low voltage post caps on the fence. Ill have t figure that part out.

Ill have to find out how they take those measurements, if they account for the height of the light in that 10ft or not.

 

[jonnyd91]

Update: Looks like my dig date is tentatively set for October 14th.

I made my final changes to my equipment below, I was finally able to get a straight answer back about the VS pump that they upgrade with. It was in fact the Tristar VS950 2.7hp. So I decided to upgrade for $1050
Now that is one less thing I need to worry about. I also had the option of using a sand filter or a DE filter for the same price so I chose to go with the DE filter Hayward Pro-Grid DE 3620.

Updated equipment list:

Equipment	Hayward
Controller	Pro-Logic Plus w/salt generator
Lights	Color Logic
Heater	H-Series Natural Gas 300,000 BTU
Filter	Hayward Pro-Grid DE 3620
Pump	Tristar VS 950 2.7HP
Spa Booster Pump	1.5 HP

So the only other thing I am contemplating is the backfill again. I wont be doing the concrete decking this year, this means that the pool will sit from November to March/April before the decking is installed. I also found out that the warranty for the decking is 1 full year against any cracking or bowing. So im wondering if I could just save that 2k and put it toward other areas of the build.

Would the 5 months be good for settlement? Like I said im in an area of NJ that is primarily sandy soil, no clay. @jimmythegreek What do you think?

Liner we picked:




My Poor grass, it looks the best it ever has

 

[jimmythegreek]

I cant say either way I'm not there to see the dirt. I will say I've never backfilled with native material and I never will....unless their lawyer amd mine write up a co signed hold harmless with no deck warranty....then I'll backfill with anything they want

 

[jonnyd91]

I cant say either way I'm not there to see the dirt. I will say I've never backfilled with native material and I never will....unless their lawyer amd mine write up a co signed hold harmless with no deck warranty....then I'll backfill with anything they want

I don’t think they would be tamping the rock as they backfill. Is this ok? I assume it still better than excavated dirt from what you are saying.

 

[Rich D]

the pool will sit from November to March/April before the decking is installed. I also found out that the warranty for the decking is 1 full year against any cracking or bowing. So im wondering if I could just save that 2k and put it toward other areas of the build.

Would the 5 months be good for settlement?

It would take years not months for that mother nature to settle that dirt and it Will never achieve the 95% compaction recommended for structural stability, so the one year warranty really does not mean much. You would be taking a large gamble not using the stone. What usually will happen is things will be fine for several years then something happens to introduce water under your deck where it has not been before. This could be a leak in your liner, someone accidentally leaving a hose running, pool overflowing or even just a area of lawn with minimal pitch that has grown to start forcing water under your slab. That water will settle the uncompacted material and leave large voids.

Sandy fill is one of the best backfill materials there is in reference to compaction, it is also one of the only materials that can be flood settled. However it still needs to be installed and compacted in lifts which is very difficult with all of the supports for a liner pool. Flood settling requires a massive amount of water and still needs to be done in lifts and puts additional pressure on the sides of the pool so you need to be filling the pool with water at the same time you are backfilling. The time and effort just does not make sense money wise unless you were doing yourself. I would also never trust any contractor to properly compact the fill around a pool unsupervised.

 

[jimmythegreek]

3/4" clean gravel needs almost nothing after it's in. I run a plate a little ways away from the walls halfway up and then when done for peace of mind. They just need to be sure theres no organics in the overdig like branches and leaves

 

[jonnyd91]

3/4" clean gravel needs almost nothing after it's in. I run a plate a little ways away from the walls halfway up and then when done for peace of mind. They just need to be sure theres no organics in the overdig like branches and leaves

What is the purpose of the plate? What kind of plate? Do you happen to have any pics for reference?

thanks