Need to know more about Pool Automation Controller installation and functionality to Complete my pool Automation Controller designe

zafarpatel7

Member
Sep 1, 2019
11
india
Hello All

I am Zafar Form India, I am very new in Pool automation System, and I am doing some study project on Pool Automation system so I required for from you to understand Pool System

I am designing IOT based Pool Automation Controller like - Jandy | AquaLink RS and i have some confusion I designing this

I pool Automation System Mail Devices as below -
-Heat Pump
-Pool Pump
-Valve
-Temperature Sensor
-Clononator

For designed automation control I need to know the installation process of the controller

1. A valve is required 24VAC and SSR(AUX relay) relay required 24VDC so in the controller required both through xmer for any AD-DC circuit is there

2. I saw most of the controller designing company using some external transformer, why there not using SMPS supply, it is better to use SMPS

3. communication between Variable pool pump and Controller is RS485, so any isolation is required between them - or no need

4. for Pump pump we use SSR (AUX relay)to switching power input, so similarly for Heater as well, because of heatre current is more compared to other devices. AUX relay current capacity is 30Amps

5. I saw Pool pump is required 2 phase to run so a single phase pump is also available.

6. i Saw chlorinator is connected parallel with the Pool pump Aux Relay When the pump is ON- chlorinator is ON and when Pump is OFF- chlorinator is OFF ...so this is Right me method ??
 

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ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
11,283
Northern NJ
Welcome to TFP.

Pool pumps are available fir 120 volts and 240 volts electrical service.

A Salt Water Chlorine Generator needs to be powered only when the pump is running for safety. If the SWGb is generating without water flow it can explode from the gasses generated.
 

zafarpatel7

Member
Sep 1, 2019
11
india
Could you please explain the function of the valve -
How many valves are required is pool automation ???
When it required to operate if you are controlling pool
 

Katodude

Silver Supporter
Aug 22, 2017
438
West Palm Beach/Florida
I believe the OP is talking about valve actuators. Your diagram appears to have 4 of them. The actuators turn the valves to control the flow of water. You will need 24vac to drive the actuators, and a way to switch power to them.
 

peterl1365

LifeTime Supporter
Mar 28, 2007
244
Murrieta, CA
I believe the OP is talking about valve actuators. Your diagram appears to have 4 of them. The actuators turn the valves to control the flow of water. You will need 24vac to drive the actuators, and a way to switch power to them.
This is the correct answer. The valves are used simply to redirect water from one pipe to another. The number of valves required is an entirely different question. A very simple pool might not need a valve at all, while more complicated pools may need more than 4.

I saw most of the controller designing company using some external transformer, why there not using SMPS supply, it is better to use SMPS
I suspect that it is less expensive to just use a transformer to convert the voltage to 24 VAC rather than use a SMPS. I think 24 VAC is generally considered non-lethal in the event of a ground fault, so there is no need to introduce the complexity of 24 VDC (grounding/polarity/etc.)

3. communication between Variable pool pump and Controller is RS485, so any isolation is required between them - or no need
I don't think RS-485 needs isolation. The distances involved are extremely short and the baud rate is probably very low so I can't think of why isolation would be beneficial. Also, RS-485 by definition uses differential signalling, so it is extremely noise-resistant, especially in non-industrial environments.

4. for Pump pump we use SSR (AUX relay)to switching power input, so similarly for Heater as well, because of heatre current is more compared to other devices. AUX relay current capacity is 30Amps
Why an SSR? You may run into cooling issues. I'm pretty sure that most pool installations use mechanical relays for cost and reliability reasons. Since you will only need to turn the pump on and off a few times a day, there is no benefit to using an SSR.

5. I saw Pool pump is required 2 phase to run so a single phase pump is also available.
I'm guessing that you mean 2 wires for the pool pump, which is a single-phase motor. Some pumps have 2 speeds which mean they have dual windings, but these are still single-phase. There is no such thing as a 2-phase motor, as far as I know. 3-phase motors do exist for industrial use, but most homes do not have the 3-phase power to drive them.
 

zafarpatel7

Member
Sep 1, 2019
11
india
Thnx for you valuable response

->Why an SSR? You may run into cooling issues. I'm pretty sure that most pool installations use mechanical relays for cost and reliability reasons. Since you will only need to turn the pump on and off a few times a day, there is no benefit to using an SSR.

Reply - I saw SSR is fro Pool Pump and for the heater, the relay is used

-> I'm guessing that you mean 2 wires for the pool pump, which is a single-phase motor. Some pumps have 2 speeds which mean they have dual windings, but these are still single-phase. There is no such thing as a 2-phase motor, as far as I know. 3-phase motors do exist for industrial use, but most homes do not have the 3-phase power to drive them.

Reply -I saw in Pentair manual, they use two-phase for Pool Pump boz motro rating is 230VAC, for 120VAC single phase is required and for 230VAC rating two-phase required, I attached image on same please check it
 

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setsailsoon

LifeTime Supporter
TFP Guide
Oct 25, 2015
1,783
Stuart/FL
Thnx for you valuable response

->Why an SSR? You may run into cooling issues. I'm pretty sure that most pool installations use mechanical relays for cost and reliability reasons. Since you will only need to turn the pump on and off a few times a day, there is no benefit to using an SSR.

Reply - I saw SSR is fro Pool Pump and for the heater, the relay is used

-> I'm guessing that you mean 2 wires for the pool pump, which is a single-phase motor. Some pumps have 2 speeds which mean they have dual windings, but these are still single-phase. There is no such thing as a 2-phase motor, as far as I know. 3-phase motors do exist for industrial use, but most homes do not have the 3-phase power to drive them.

Reply -I saw in Pentair manual, they use two-phase for Pool Pump boz motro rating is 230VAC, for 120VAC single phase is required and for 230VAC rating two-phase required, I attached image on same please check it
Zafar,

Not sure what your question is about SSR. The industry standard design is to use 3 hp pump relays to turn anything on or off with automation. Mounting for relays uses this spacing in almost all power center. Yes it's over-sized for capacity of low amp devices but power center spacing is to this standard. There are some specialized relays for 2-speed pumps but they typically take up more space. You can also use two relays to select high or low speed. Variable speed drives are becoming the standard because they use permanent magnet motors which typically are 30% more efficient than single speed induction motors. Also, most of the pump operating cycle only requires an intermediate speed that is greater than low speed on 2-speed pumps. This can result in 80+% efficiency improvement. So the cost of a variable speed drive can usually payout in 1 year.

As pointed out earlier all motors are single phase. Most pool motors are 240 v 60 hz. Above ground pools typically uses 120v. Single speed primary pumps are legacy and many local codes have banned them. Newer designs use 2 speed or variable speed. If the pool uses a booster pump for a cleaner (like a Polaris) or uses this to create bubbles with an air venturi system these are single speed.

Most devices for pools, including motors, have wiring to use 240v or 120v 60 hz for convenience and to allow use in below ground or above ground installations. The default wiring is usually 240v unless the device is primarily marketed as an above ground device.

I hope this helps and good luck with your project. Please do let us know your progress.

Chris
 

peterl1365

LifeTime Supporter
Mar 28, 2007
244
Murrieta, CA
Zafar,

Re: the SSR, perhaps it is a simple misunderstanding of the terminology. Typically, SSR stands for Solid State Relay, which means that the relay can turn on or off without any mechanical movement. It is essentially a large semiconductor device. Pool systems typically use mechanical relays, which are basically the same as a light switch.

Either type of relay would work, but SSR's tend to be more expensive for large loads (greater than 1 or 2 amps), and need to be kept below certain temperature thresholds.

As for the motors, be careful not to confuse the number of wires with "phases". A two wire motor (with or without a ground wire) is a single phase motor. A 3-phase motor will have either 3 or 4 wires depending on how it is wired (which is not a topic that needs to be discussed here)

Having said all that, it is possible that some variable speed pool pumps may use 3-phase motors internally, but they connect to an automation system as if they were single phase. This is because the speed controller (the "drive") can take single phase power and convert it to 3-phase power specifically for that motor. Think of the drive as a Switch Mode Power Supply, except it outputs AC power instead of DC. The drive varies the voltage and frequency of the output in order to control the speed of the motor.
 
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zafarpatel7

Member
Sep 1, 2019
11
india
Thanks Chris for your respond

Right now I have Completed all Hardware Architecture design work based on so far What I understand and in comming week I will go for Schematic and PCB design work

==>>I have another Question Related to Heater Isaw in pool system 3 types of Heate is used
1. Electric Heater
2. Gas Heater
3. Solar Heater

I consider all of three in my design but for application point of view, User select heater and then set to ON or user-set only temperature and Controller automatic detecting available source and set it ON based on cost or anything ???
 
Last edited:

setsailsoon

LifeTime Supporter
TFP Guide
Oct 25, 2015
1,783
Stuart/FL
Zafar,

Typically installations have either an electric or gas although there are now a couple of "hybrid" models that use a heat pump and gas combination. Solar heat is independent. Some installations combine solar with one of the other heating methods. My pool uses solar and/or gas. Since I live in S Florida most of the time Solar provides more than enough heat so I have it on a separate temperature control. When the pool is up to temperature a valve is actuated that bypasses the pool. The same control bypasses the solar panel when there is a thunderstorm that cools the panel or any time the panel temp is within 1 deg F of the pool. This avoids accidentally cooling the pool when it's not desired. Also this feature can be configured to cool the pool intentionally at night if it gets too hot during the day. In all cases that I'm aware of heating is controlled by a temperature set point that is adjustable and activated by turning the heat on. If the pool has an attached spa you can select "spa only". This operates valves such that the spa is isolated from the pool water flow so that only the spa water is heated. This is done to save utility costs and to allow the spa to heat up quickly since it's water volume is much less than the pool. In my case the pool heats up about 3 deg F per hour. The spa has less than 10% of the volume so it heats up proportionately faster.

I hope this helps.

Chris
 
Last edited:

zafarpatel7

Member
Sep 1, 2019
11
india
Zafar,

Typically installations have either an electric or gas although there are now a couple of "hybrid" models that use a heat pump and gas combination. Solar heat is independent. Some installations combine solar with one of the other heating methods. My pool uses solar and/or gas. Since I live in S Florida most of the time Solar provides more than enough heat so I have it on a separate temperature control. When the pool is up to temperature a valve is actuated that bypasses the pool. The same control bypasses the solar panel when there is a thunderstorm that cools the panel or any time the panel temp is within 1 deg F of the pool. This avoids accidentally cooling the pool when it's not desired. Also this feature can be configured to cool the pool intentionally at night if it gets too hot during the day. In all cases that I'm aware of heating is controlled by a temperature set point that is adjustable and activated by turning the heat on. If the pool has an attached spa you can select "spa only". This operates valves such that the spa is isolated from the pool water flow so that only the spa water is heated. This is done to save utility costs and to allow the spa to heat up quickly since it's water volume is much less than the pool. In my case the pool heats up about 3 deg F per hour. The spa has less than 10% of the volume so it heats up proportionately faster.

I hope this helps.

Zafar,

Typically installations have either an electric or gas although there are now a couple of "hybrid" models that use a heat pump and gas combination. Solar heat is independent. Some installations combine solar with one of the other heating methods. My pool uses solar and/or gas. Since I live in S Florida most of the time Solar provides more than enough heat so I have it on a separate temperature control. When the pool is up to temperature a valve is actuated that bypasses the pool. The same control bypasses the solar panel when there is a thunderstorm that cools the panel or any time the panel temp is within 1 deg F of the pool. This avoids accidentally cooling the pool when it's not desired. Also this feature can be configured to cool the pool intentionally at night if it gets too hot during the day. In all cases that I'm aware of heating is controlled by a temperature set point that is adjustable and activated by turning the heat on. If the pool has an attached spa you can select "spa only". This operates valves such that the spa is isolated from the pool water flow so that only the spa water is heated. This is done to save utility costs and to allow the spa to heat up quickly since it's water volume is much less than the pool. In my case the pool heats up about 3 deg F per hour. The spa has less than 10% of the volume so it heats up proportionately faster.

I hope this helps.

Chris

Thank you, Chris, very good input from your side
 

zafarpatel7

Member
Sep 1, 2019
11
india
So Chris as per my understanding

I in the pool we can use only one heater used for pool and spa as well, we just change Mode like - mean SPA mode and Pool Mode. Spa mode only spa water is heating and Pool mode only Pool temperature is heating. we can switch Pool mode to Spa mode using Valve because we have only one heater for both ...Right ???
So valve is only used for switch to POOL mode to Spa Mode - any specific name for this valve ???

and we are using Solar, then more valve is required or any specific name of that ...??? and please provide any drawing if you have for valve connection in the pool automation system
 

zafarpatel7

Member
Sep 1, 2019
11
india
My another question is related top Pool Light

As I already told I am designing one Pool Controller. so In found in pool light system, two types of light are available
1. ON/OFF control with si controlled through simple AUX relay
2. Multicolored Light like smart light (might WiFI Based ) - (for it Auto Changes able ?? or we can control their color )

for point 1 is ok but in 2nd point, I have too much confusion and assumption
- It is Wifi based - if yes there is any protocol ???????????????
- all smart light flow same protocol of different manufacture having different protocol ?????????????
- or for controlling multicolour it required some other controller ???????????
- which manufacture is best in Pool lighting, provided data sheet ????????
or any specific details which you want to share which is useful for controlling purpose


Thanks
Zafar iQbal
 

setsailsoon

LifeTime Supporter
TFP Guide
Oct 25, 2015
1,783
Stuart/FL
So Chris as per my understanding

I in the pool we can use only one heater used for pool and spa as well, we just change Mode like - mean SPA mode and Pool Mode. Spa mode only spa water is heating and Pool mode only Pool temperature is heating. we can switch Pool mode to Spa mode using Valve because we have only one heater for both ...Right ???
So valve is only used for switch to POOL mode to Spa Mode - any specific name for this valve ???

and we are using Solar, then more valve is required or any specific name of that ...??? and please provide any drawing if you have for valve connection in the pool automation system
Zafar,

Sort of correct. Most pools can do spa mode or pool mode. Spa mode is only spa. Valves actuate on the return line to feed water to the spa and the pump inlet valve switches to only take water from the spa drain. Pool mode can be pool only or pool through the spa since most spa's sharing the pool overflow into the pool. The spa-pool valve is a return valve. Solar valve is called the solar bypass valve. When it is closed flow bypasses the solar heater to flow through the gas heater, then the chlorine cell for my salt pool and then returns to the pool.

Chris
 
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setsailsoon

LifeTime Supporter
TFP Guide
Oct 25, 2015
1,783
Stuart/FL
My another question is related top Pool Light

As I already told I am designing one Pool Controller. so In found in pool light system, two types of light are available
1. ON/OFF control with si controlled through simple AUX relay
2. Multicolored Light like smart light (might WiFI Based ) - (for it Auto Changes able ?? or we can control their color )

for point 1 is ok but in 2nd point, I have too much confusion and assumption
- It is Wifi based - if yes there is any protocol ???????????????
- all smart light flow same protocol of different manufacture having different protocol ?????????????
- or for controlling multicolour it required some other controller ???????????
- which manufacture is best in Pool lighting, provided data sheet ????????
or any specific details which you want to share which is useful for controlling purpose


Thanks
Zafar iQbal
Zafar,

Point #1 is correct. Lights are simply turned on and off with a relay that switches power to the lights or the transformer that supplies the lights. For switchable lights, these are LED lights with a control circuit that's embedded in the LED light itself. The circuitry seems to be the same for all brands. It switches color by decoding power on-off pulses. For manual lights you turn the light on from a wall switch then within 4 seconds you toggle the switch on and off quickly. There are about 8 color combinations that can be selected by doing 1 to 8 quick toggles. Automation systems simulate this by switching a relay on and off quickly and the correct number of times. So the owner can select the color and the automation program cycles the relay the right number of times for the color selected. Should be a pretty easy "do loop" in your software. I can't recall the color switch codes but it goes something like 1 toggle is white, two are light blue, 3 are dark blue... and so on.

I hope this helps.

Chris
 
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ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
11,283
Northern NJ
2. Multicolored Light like smart light (might WiFI Based ) - (for it Auto Changes able ?? or we can control their color )

for point 1 is ok but in 2nd point, I have too much confusion and assumption
- It is Wifi based - if yes there is any protocol ???????????????
- all smart light flow same protocol of different manufacture having different protocol ?????????????
- or for controlling multicolour it required some other controller ???????????
- which manufacture is best in Pool lighting, provided data sheet ????????
or any specific details which you want to share which is useful for controlling purpose
Pool LED lights don't use WIFI.

Many use on/off pulses to change color.

Hayward uses power line networking to control their ColorLogic lights with their ProLogic system.


Colorlogic manual is here —> https://hayward-pool-assets.com/assets/documents/pools/pdf/manuals/UniversalColorLogicandCrystaLogic-InstallationandOperations.pdf?fromCDN=true

See page 11. The lights can be networked with ProLogic.

Page 13 says:

Networking
Using a ColorLogic modem AQL-COLOR-MODHV and Coupler LKBUN1000, owners of Hayward Pro Logic PS pool/spa controllers using software version 4.45 or greater can network their LSCUN11xxx and/or LPCUN11xxx Universal ColorLogic light(s), allowing them to fully control the color, speed, motion and brightness of preset light shows. If the lights will be networked, refer to the AQL-COLOR-MODHV ColorLogic Network module for programs and operation instructions.

Also see https://hayward-pool-assets.com/assets/documents/pools/pdf/manuals/CouplerOwnerManuals.pdf?fromCDN=true

and https://hayward-pool-assets.com/assets/documents/pools/pdf/manuals/ColorLogic-AQL-COLOR-MODHV.pdf?fromCDN=true
 
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