Metal Stain -Copper

gfritz1

Member
Jun 9, 2015
21
Saint Marys, PA
Use the BBB method and pool is over 40 years. Vinyl lined -inground- DE filter -23000 gals .Readings yesterday showed PH at 7.3 Chlorine at 2.5 and Alk at 133 and CYA at 69. Over the years I have fought staining and have used abcorbic acid to put into suspension and then a culator to remove with success . This year not having any luck as added (2) quarts of the blue stuff and the culator and it comes back in 2 days . I thought it was the Kem Tek 60 algaecide but they said it does not contain copper. Im lost what to try next ? Do have a Raypack heater and thinking maybe it is the source but based on my readings dont understand why that would be .HELP
 

Texas Splash

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If you haven't added any copper-based product, the heater would be my guess. Your pH is on the low end right now, and if it was any lower before for an extended period of time that could do it. Your testing results don't appear to be from a TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C test kit, so there may be some questionable numbers there as well. If you can bypass the heater that would be a good idea. If the water isn't responding to the chemical sequestrant, then I suspect the copper level is simply too high in which a water exchange wold be your best bet.
 

gfritz1

Member
Jun 9, 2015
21
Saint Marys, PA
If you haven't added any copper-based product, the heater would be my guess. Your pH is on the low end right now, and if it was any lower before for an extended period of time that could do it. Your testing results don't appear to be from a TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C test kit, so there may be some questionable numbers there as well. If you can bypass the heater that would be a good idea. If the water isn't responding to the chemical sequestrant, then I suspect the copper level is simply too high in which a water exchange wold be your best bet.
If you haven't added any copper-based product, the heater would be my guess. Your pH is on the low end right now, and if it was any lower before for an extended period of time that could do it. Your testing results don't appear to be from a TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C test kit, so there may be some questionable numbers there as well. If you can bypass the heater that would be a good idea. If the water isn't responding to the chemical sequestrant, then I suspect the copper level is simply too high in which a water exchange wold be your best bet.
It is from a Taylor 2006 kit . I use the Taylor and also have a Beta Test kit on trial so compare to both . What is your recommendation on PH ? It was below 7.3 for a extended period so as you suggested maybe the reason .
 

duraleigh

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Copper stains I suppose could be light blue but much more commonly are blue-black.

You used ascorbic acid in the past and that's for iron stains. Have you tried vitamin C tablets (crushed in a sock)? That would also be iron.
 

gfritz1

Member
Jun 9, 2015
21
Saint Marys, PA
Copper stains I suppose could be light blue but much more commonly are blue-black.

You used ascorbic acid in the past and that's for iron stains. Have you tried vitamin C tablets (crushed in a sock)? That would also be iron.
So are you saying that ascorbic acid will not remove a copper stain ? Yes the stain I have is more like a iron stain as its a brown/tan stain and not a blue -black stain . Im on city water and have not really added water so unsure where the iron could be entering from ? Like I said its worst this year . Any thoughts ? Need to check what the heater core on a Raypack is but assume copper or some sort of alloy .Need to check
 

Texas Splash

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So are you saying that ascorbic acid will not remove a copper stain ?
Typically that's correct. So try the Vitamin C test as Dave suggested. Based on your description of brown & tan, iron seems like the culprit. If the Vitamin C doesn't work (iron), try some dry acid in a thin sock or nylon (copper). Either way let us know. If it's iron you can probably rule out the heater, but then that leaves the iron mystery. Even some city water has elevated iron in it, so that could be it and it just built-up over time. Check your city/county annual water report. Maybe have some tap water tested at the local pool store. You don't want your pH below 7.3 for too long to prevent erosion to your heater core.
 

gfritz1

Member
Jun 9, 2015
21
Saint Marys, PA
Typically that's correct. So try the Vitamin C test as Dave suggested. Based on your description of brown & tan, iron seems like the culprit. If the Vitamin C doesn't work (iron), try some dry acid in a thin sock or nylon (copper). Either way let us know. If it's iron you can probably rule out the heater, but then that leaves the iron mystery. Even some city water has elevated iron in it, so that could be it and it just built-up over time. Check your city/county annual water report. Maybe have some tap water tested at the local pool store. You don't want your pH below 7.3 for too long to prevent erosion to your heater core.
ok went to pool store and they ran test . PH 7.4 FC 1.4 Hardness 16ppm Alkalinity 115 CYA 62 Copper .7 ppm Iron o ppm Phosphate 5534 . I ran my Taylor Test kit and got the following reading PH 7.3 FC 1.6 Hardness 50 Alkalinity 110 CYA 60. Finally I am a user of a Beta System by JnC Global that must have a relationship with Leslie Pool . They are testing a system that provides a digital reading . PH 7.1 FC 1.27 Alkalinity 141 CYA 78. So need all your expert opinion of what to proceed with . The pool store was alarmed about the Phosphates ???? So based on the pool store the test shows copper . The culator sock also had a blue color to it which would confirm copper. But then why does the absorbic acid remove it immediately ? Any concern with the hardness measurement, The water is perfectly clear .If anything I appear to go through chlorine at a higher rate than other years. I spot treated two days ago with the acid and so far the staining looked ok today . I think that my PH has been low since my opening in April and have been using Washing Soda or Mule Teen to raise it . Thus I could have compromised my heater . I do not have a bypass on heater . questions? thoughts ?
 

carlos31820

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Nov 22, 2010
413
Midland, Georgia
I know the general consensus here is that you don't need CH for vinyl pools but you have a pool heater and without any CH, the water LSI index can lean towards corrosive water which can cause problems with your heater if it has a copper exchanger and you have no way to bypass it.

Using the pool store water test results shows a corrosive LSI.

Using your test results, the water LSI index shows it not as corrosive as the pool store results but still somewhat corrosive.
 
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Texas Splash

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Phosphates isn't the issue. Your #1 issue is that copper, and with an elevated copper level of .7, that can present more staining issues over time. Figuring out where the copper came from is very important. Is it from the heater or was it from chemicals added previously? So you have a decision to make. You can keep going this season with the water you have now and treat spots as they occur, or you can exchange a good bit of it to lower that copper level. But either way you need peace of mind about the source of the copper.
 

gfritz1

Member
Jun 9, 2015
21
Saint Marys, PA
Phosphates isn't the issue. Your #1 issue is that copper, and with an elevated copper level of .7, that can present more staining issues over time. Figuring out where the copper came from is very important. Is it from the heater or was it from chemicals added previously? So you have a decision to make. You can keep going this season with the water you have now and treat spots as they occur, or you can exchange a good bit of it to lower that copper level. But either way you need peace of mind about the source of the copper.
Really don’t want to exchange that much water. How much of the 23000 would need changed
 

duraleigh

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Soluble copper is distributed evenly in pool water. About 2/3 of your water would need to be drained to get the copper down to .2 ppm from it's current .7 ppm
 

gfritz1

Member
Jun 9, 2015
21
Saint Marys, PA
Your question was answered in the post above.
Started the drain and new water today since the temperatures are hot and it looks like rain. Ordered some calcium online which will arrive next week . Walmart was like $11 for 4 lbs . Live in small Pennsylvania town with really no pool store so Walmart or Ace only options. See what things look like in morning
 

Texas Splash

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Remember that vinyl pools don't typically need calcium. Some people become concerned about CH for heaters, but it's a low pH that is much more destructive to a heater core. So if you do decide to add CH,keep it to a minimum. Exchanging water was the right move. :goodjob:
 

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