Looking for Feedback on (Ambitious?) Plan for Pool Maintenance

[cargsl]

New (and ambitious) pool owner looking for advice.

I finished construction of a pool a couple of months back (13K Gallon, IG plaster, Nature2 Trichlor, Cartridge Filter, Jandy VSP Main pump, Gas Heater, 3 additional water feature pumps) and decided to try out a pool service agreement with the pool company. The service is for 1 visit a week in which the pool technician will clean the skimmers, brush the pool and check and adjust the pool chemistry. They charge me around $200 dollars each month for this service. As an added "incentive" they will extend my pool warranty from 1-year to 3-years if I keep this service contract (is this actually worth it?).

Nevertheless I'm pretty unhappy with the maintenance the pool company is doing to the pool. Even after brushing the pool will still have stuff on the bottom, the skimmers don't get particularly full (and cleaning them is extremely easy) but most damning of all, they are doing a terrible job with pool chemistry. I've had to add MA to the pool myself to keep the pH at around 7.7 (pH has gone as high as 9), I've run out of chlorine during the week (and then they put 12 trichlor tabs on the Nature2), they are not keeping an eye on CH (which is too low already), nor CYA (which last week was 121 forcing me to dump a ton of water out of the pool. But after going through 12 trichlor tabs just in a week, what could I expect).

So, unsurprisingly, I've decided to take care of the pool myself. Since I have an interest in industrial control systems I came up with a plan on how to take over the maintenance that is slightly different from the recommendations here (in terms of mechanisms, not chemistry) and was looking for feedback from more knowledgeable people.

1. Bring water chemistry to the recommended balance on TFP (pH: ~7.7, FC ~7, CYA: 45, CH: 450, TA: 70)
2. Stop using Trichlor on the Nature2 (and remove the Mineral Cartridge)
3. Move to using Liquid Chlorine for chlorination
4. Add Borates to the pool (for the pH buffering effects)

For ongoing maintenance I'm aware that some of these ideas are overkill (and a simple human-in-the-loop would work just as well) but I find the challenge of automating the pool as much as possible exciting (and I've dealt with control systems before so I'm comfortable with the challenge I'm taking on). Without further ado, this is what I'm planning to do:

1. Get a Pool Robot to do the brushing and vacuuming of the pool.
2. Use a pH probe to measure pH continuously (correcting for Temp).
3. After it goes above the setpoint (7.75) dispense enough MA using a peristaltic pump to bring it down to 7.6 (taking into account the delay between dispensing the MA and the probe reading it). The injection point would be on the pool return, after pump, filter and heater, but before the Nature2 Chlorinator. Injection would only happen with the pump running on High and the pump would keep running for another hour after dispensing.
4. Install a Peristaltic pump to dispense a fixed amount of Liquid Chlorine into the pool return (near the injection point for MA) every night at 10pm (after sun-down). I would calculate the amount based on how much ppm I lose every week (doing this calculation daily seems excessive). Same as above, dispensing LC would happen only with the pump running on high.
5. Every week do basic tests (pH and FC) using a TF-Pro and confirm probe readings. Manually clean skimmers
6. Every month do additional TA, Calcium and CYA tests.

After doing a bunch of reading around the forum, this plan looks pretty good to me, but would appreciate any feedback from more knowledgeable people.

 

[HermanTX]

Welcome to TFP.

I finished construction of a pool a couple of months back (13K Gallon, IG plaster, Nature2 Trichlor, Cartridge Filter, Jandy VSP Main pump, Gas Heater, 3 additional water feature pumps) and decided to try out a pool service agreement with the pool company. The service is for 1 visit a week in which the pool technician will clean the skimmers, brush the pool and check and adjust the pool chemistry. They charge me around $200 dollars each month for this service. As an added "incentive" they will extend my pool warranty from 1-year to 3-years if I keep this service contract (is this actually worth it?).

Your equipment through Jandy is already warranted for 3 yrs since you had it "professionally" installed. You can set up warranty with Jandy directly (I think). Your plaster is most likely warranted for 5 yrs or more - you did not state what plaster you have but you can go on their website to confirm. Your PB should have given you all your warranties before the final payment.

So what are you getting from 1 yr to 3 yrs? The pool gunite shell? The piping? I think if they do not fail in the 1st year then you are good. Glad you stopped the service.

So, unsurprisingly, I've decided to take care of the pool myself. Since I have an interest in industrial control systems I came up with a plan on how to take over the maintenance that is slightly different from the recommendations here (in terms of mechanisms, not chemistry) and was looking for feedback from more knowledgeable people.

1. Bring water chemistry to the recommended balance on TFP (pH: ~7.7, FC ~7, CYA: 45, CH: 450, TA: 70)
2. Stop using Trichlor on the Nature2 (and remove the Mineral Cartridge)
3. Move to using Liquid Chlorine for chlorination
4. Add Borates to the pool (for the pH buffering effects)

1 - great
2 - double great
3 - great - that is what I do
4 - read up on

Borates in pool - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

For ongoing maintenance I'm aware that some of these ideas are overkill (and a simple human-in-the-loop would work just as well) but I find the challenge of automating the pool as much as possible exciting (and I've dealt with control systems before so I'm comfortable with the challenge I'm taking on). Without further ado, this is what I'm planning to do:

1. Get a Pool Robot to do the brushing and vacuuming of the pool.
2. Use a pH probe to measure pH continuously (correcting for Temp).
3. After it goes above the setpoint (7.75) dispense enough MA using a peristaltic pump to bring it down to 7.6 (taking into account the delay between dispensing the MA and the probe reading it). The injection point would be on the pool return, after pump, filter and heater, but before the Nature2 Chlorinator. Injection would only happen with the pump running on High and the pump would keep running for another hour after dispensing.
4. Install a Peristaltic pump to dispense a fixed amount of Liquid Chlorine into the pool return (near the injection point for MA) every night at 10pm (after sun-down). I would calculate the amount based on how much ppm I lose every week (doing this calculation daily seems excessive). Same as above, dispensing LC would happen only with the pump running on high.
5. Every week do basic tests (pH and FC) using a TF-Pro and confirm probe readings. Manually clean skimmers
6. Every month do additional TA, Calcium and CYA tests.

After

1 - there are lots of pros and cons on the forum - what type of cleaner do you have now (add it to your signature)
2. lots of info on pH probes as well
3. There are some systems that do this - again on the forum - I know Pentair has an iChem product with mixed reviews on the forum
4. Many members have installed the Steiner Pump - search the forum
5. great
6. I test my TA every time I test pH because they are linked and affected by adding MA
Test CYA if any significant change in water balance such as lots of rain (wishful thinking now) in addition to your monthly plan

Good Luck

 

[HermanTX]

This is a good discussion thread on robots

Robot Vacuums - So Many Questions!

We are struggling with some of life's great questions...Don't let us down TFP! We need your help! :LOL: Are pool vacuum robots really worth the higher price tag compared to side vacs? Do side vacs put a strain on pool equipment so much that the wear and tear you save on the equipment when...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[cargsl]

Your equipment through Jandy is already warranted for 3 yrs since you had it "professionally" installed. You can set up warranty with Jandy directly (I think). Your plaster is most likely warranted for 5 yrs or more - you did not state what plaster you have but you can go on their website to confirm. Your PB should have given you all your warranties before the final payment.

I have a PebbleTec plaster and as you mentioned it has a separate warranty. They gave me the information for all of it on a folder after construction. From your comment, it seems like their "extended" warranty is pretty much no warranty at all. I haven't stopped service yet. Want to make sure to get everything to take control of my pool in place before getting rid of them.

1 - great
2 - double great
3 - great - that is what I do
4 - read up on

Thanks for this. Will read up on borates

1 - there are lots of pros and cons on the forum - what type of cleaner do you have now (add it to your signature)
2. lots of info on pH probes as well
3. There are some systems that do this - again on the forum - I know Pentair has an iChem product with mixed reviews on the forum
4. Many members have installed the Steiner Pump - search the forum
5. great
6. I test my TA every time I test pH because they are linked and affected by adding MA
Test CYA if any significant change in water balance such as lots of rain (wishful thinking now) in addition to your monthly plan

1. I don't own any right now. My pool has an in-floor system that is overall pretty decent (the bottom is never too gritty even right before weekly brushing) but I do want the option of thoroughly cleaning my pool. My main concern with the robot is that the pool is a rather unique design (it has a sunken bar, the space between the stools is not big enough for a robot, some interesting steps in the water where the robot also won't fit) so I will always have to do some brushing, but I'm looking for something that will take care of the large open areas and the benches.
2. From what I've read, most people seem to think they are overkill because they need to be calibrated and replaced and end up being more work than manual testing. I don't disagree with that sentiment but enjoy having the data to log and analyze later.
3 & 4. I'm building my own using a peristaltic pump from Atlas Scientific and a microcontroller. It has been an adventure getting the MA to work reliably, but I'm getting there.
6. Will do that. Right now my TA is sitting at almost 200, but since I'm planning to take care of the pool, I guess a ton of MA will take care of that over time. Will also look at CYA more consistently.

Also, saw you live in Katy, I live in Cypress, it's good to know there are other people who follow TFPC in the Houston Area. Which brings to mind, where do you get your LC? I bought my first 4 gallons at Walmart for ~$20. Was that a good price?

 

[cargsl]

This is a good discussion thread on robots

Thanks for this. A lot of good advice. Is there any place that has decent reviews of Pool Robots? Is there any way to test drive one?

 

[wireform]

For starters your CYA is considered 50, no such thing as 45.

 

[cargsl]

For starters your CYA is considered 50, no such thing as 45.

Makes sense since the test only measures in increments of 10. What I tried to say is that I'm going to target the midpoint between the recommended ranges and wanted to get some feedback on whether that is (in general) a good idea, or if I should target the higher end or the lower end of the range instead.

 

[wireform]

There isn't one rule for all levels. FC has an absolute minimum and target of low and high. Personal preference is the dominant factor and so on for the rest of them.

 

[Lake Placid]

Since you‘re already planning to automate ph management via a probe, why not employ an orp probe and automate chlorine dispensing more completely as well with a set point instead of a “static drip”. You could then add chlorine in smaller doses more precisely all day vs higher swings up at night and down during the day. Probes come with their own troubleshooting issues, need for routine cleaning, daily calibration off your test kit, slightly modified CYA level, but if its your thing and you want to automate go for it. You seem to already know what you’re getting into there and not under an assumption it will be a great time saver.

 

[cargsl]

Since you‘re already planning to automate ph management via a probe, why not employ an orp probe and automate chlorine dispensing more completely as well with a set point instead of a “static drip”. You could then add chlorine in smaller doses more precisely all day vs higher swings up at night and down during the day. Probes come with their own troubleshooting issues, need for routine cleaning, daily calibration off your test kit, slightly modified CYA level, but if its your thing and you want to automate go for it. You seem to already know what you’re getting into there and not under an assumption it will be a great time saver.

I do have an ORP probe already, but from what I've read, the relationship between FC and ORP is murky at best. My plan was to use the ORP sensor to detect when something weird is going on in the pool (ex. my pool's orp generally goes from 650 to 800, then last week it went to 100. That's when I discovered the nice gift of 121 CYA the pool people left me with) instead of focusing on automatic dosing for LC. Is there a good article explaining a strategy on using ORP as a proxy for FC? I don't mind having to deal with the quirks of automation, but having to depend on a sensor that needs to be calibrated daily is not what I'm looking for.

 

[Lake Placid]

I do have an ORP probe already, but from what I've read, the relationship between FC and ORP is murky at best. My plan was to use the ORP sensor to detect when something weird is going on in the pool (ex. my pool's orp generally goes from 650 to 800, then last week it went to 100. That's when I discovered the nice gift of 121 CYA the pool people left me with) instead of focusing on automatic dosing for LC. Is there a good article explaining a strategy on using ORP as a proxy for FC? I don't mind having to deal with the quirks of automation, but having to depend on a sensor that needs to be calibrated daily is not what I'm looking for.

I’m not aware of an article here but there very may well be some. Certainly there are a number on the google machine The ORP/FC chart is somewhat murky as you say but once you get your chemistry set generally you will find the ORP setting that keeps your FC where you want it. Used to be early season ORP setting would start lower for the level of desired FC but then level into the 700 range to keep FC where we were mandated to. It can be fiddley and is a moving target especially in outdoor settings, which doesn’t sound like your looking for too much.

 

[HermanTX]

Also, saw you live in Katy, I live in Cypress, it's good to know there are other people who follow TFPC in the Houston Area. Which brings to mind, where do you get your LC? I bought my first 4 gallons at Walmart for ~$20. Was that a good price?

There are many contributors from the Houston area and surrounding counties.
I find the best price for LC is from Pinch A Penny. They sell a 2.5 gal jug for $10 plus tax. Last year it was $8 plus tax. They refill the jugs through an exchange program and you get a free jug after 10 purchases. It is also the freshest as they replenish their holding tank often. I see lots of people purchasing the LC.
The other option is Walmart or Home Depot which both sell for about the same price as you stated.
There is a 3rd supplier -NAPCO - they are on Spring Cypress Rd in Sping. Too far for me to travel - especially with these gas prices - they are a distributor but sell to the public 3 days a week but it is minimum 5 gal container. I think they do the exchange program as well. In fact I think they are the supplier to Pinch a Penny. NAPCO phone is (281) 651-6800. You can call to get their current details for supply as they may be closer to you.
Good Luck

 

[SoDel]

New (and ambitious) pool owner looking for advice.

I finished construction of a pool a couple of months back (13K Gallon, IG plaster, Nature2 Trichlor, Cartridge Filter, Jandy VSP Main pump, Gas Heater, 3 additional water feature pumps) and decided to try out a pool service agreement with the pool company. The service is for 1 visit a week in which the pool technician will clean the skimmers, brush the pool and check and adjust the pool chemistry. They charge me around $200 dollars each month for this service. As an added "incentive" they will extend my pool warranty from 1-year to 3-years if I keep this service contract (is this actually worth it?).

Nevertheless I'm pretty unhappy with the maintenance the pool company is doing to the pool. Even after brushing the pool will still have stuff on the bottom, the skimmers don't get particularly full (and cleaning them is extremely easy) but most damning of all, they are doing a terrible job with pool chemistry. I've had to add MA to the pool myself to keep the pH at around 7.7 (pH has gone as high as 9), I've run out of chlorine during the week (and then they put 12 trichlor tabs on the Nature2), they are not keeping an eye on CH (which is too low already), nor CYA (which last week was 121 forcing me to dump a ton of water out of the pool. But after going through 12 trichlor tabs just in a week, what could I expect).

So, unsurprisingly, I've decided to take care of the pool myself. Since I have an interest in industrial control systems I came up with a plan on how to take over the maintenance that is slightly different from the recommendations here (in terms of mechanisms, not chemistry) and was looking for feedback from more knowledgeable people.

1. Bring water chemistry to the recommended balance on TFP (pH: ~7.7, FC ~7, CYA: 45, CH: 450, TA: 70)
2. Stop using Trichlor on the Nature2 (and remove the Mineral Cartridge)
3. Move to using Liquid Chlorine for chlorination
4. Add Borates to the pool (for the pH buffering effects)

For ongoing maintenance I'm aware that some of these ideas are overkill (and a simple human-in-the-loop would work just as well) but I find the challenge of automating the pool as much as possible exciting (and I've dealt with control systems before so I'm comfortable with the challenge I'm taking on). Without further ado, this is what I'm planning to do:

1. Get a Pool Robot to do the brushing and vacuuming of the pool.
2. Use a pH probe to measure pH continuously (correcting for Temp).
3. After it goes above the setpoint (7.75) dispense enough MA using a peristaltic pump to bring it down to 7.6 (taking into account the delay between dispensing the MA and the probe reading it). The injection point would be on the pool return, after pump, filter and heater, but before the Nature2 Chlorinator. Injection would only happen with the pump running on High and the pump would keep running for another hour after dispensing.
4. Install a Peristaltic pump to dispense a fixed amount of Liquid Chlorine into the pool return (near the injection point for MA) every night at 10pm (after sun-down). I would calculate the amount based on how much ppm I lose every week (doing this calculation daily seems excessive). Same as above, dispensing LC would happen only with the pump running on high.
5. Every week do basic tests (pH and FC) using a TF-Pro and confirm probe readings. Manually clean skimmers
6. Every month do additional TA, Calcium and CYA tests.

After doing a bunch of reading around the forum, this plan looks pretty good to me, but would appreciate any feedback from more knowledgeable people.

Looks like something fun to try plus it may work! My only observation is the FC testing once a week. As has been pointed put, ORP probes are reputedly flakey — all the other chemistry can sit for a week or month as applicable for sure, but would it be a hardship to verify FC more frequently than once a week?

 

[cargsl]

Looks like something fun to try plus it may work! My only observation is the FC testing once a week. As has been pointed put, ORP probes are reputedly flakey — all the other chemistry can sit for a week or month as applicable for sure, but would it be a hardship to verify FC more frequently than once a week?

I don't intend to use the ORP probe to correlate the water's actual FC level, more of an early warning system that "something is off". At the beginning I assume I will have to do frequent testing (daily?) of FC to learn the nuances of my pool. My hope is that after some close monitoring, I can reduce the testing to a weekly kind of thing and rely on the peristaltic pump to keep my FC inside the "good enough" range. Is that an unrealistic expectation?

 

[SoDel]

I don't intend to use the ORP probe to correlate the water's actual FC level, more of an early warning system that "something is off". At the beginning I assume I will have to do frequent testing (daily?) of FC to learn the nuances of my pool. My hope is that after some close monitoring, I can reduce the testing to a weekly kind of thing and rely on the peristaltic pump to keep my FC inside the "good enough" range. Is that an unrealistic expectation?

My former pool service used to come once a week and the water was always very clear so I’d say it is certainly possible. The ORP reading as a flag seems like a very good idea. I get it — leave it for a week, unless . . .

Chlorine use will vary with sun, temps and organic/bather load. But a general baseline all day long as long as it’s high enough, I’d have to believe would be ok. Once you discover that baseline, should be fairly consistent and tend towards a mean.

 

[Bperry]

I don't intend to use the ORP probe to correlate the water's actual FC level, more of an early warning system that "something is off". At the beginning I assume I will have to do frequent testing (daily?) of FC to learn the nuances of my pool. My hope is that after some close monitoring, I can reduce the testing to a weekly kind of thing and rely on the peristaltic pump to keep my FC inside the "good enough" range. Is that an unrealistic expectation?

Is there a reason why you'de choose a chlorine dispenser over salt water chlorine generator? I’m able to go a week between chlorine testing using mine, though it can be sketchy doing so. I had my timer that controls the generator come loose of one of the stops that shuts it back on after it has been off. When I caught it, the FC had dropped to 2ppm and so another day of that might have got me in trouble. So consider what happens when power failures happen.

The other thing with liquid chlorine pump systems is that you have a big tank of chlorine degrading in the sun and heat and you have to refill it, I’m assuming lots of times over the season.