Jacks Magic Stain Solution 2 Recovery

JeanZ1

Bronze Supporter
Aug 15, 2017
67
Newark/DE
Hi there, Hoping to get some input from some of the resident chemistry gurus here. I completed the Jacks Magic stain solution 2 procedure (worked great). All is good except I can't maintain a FC level, it is all bound up in CC. I've been using Polyquat 60 since I started 2 weeks ago so all good on the algae front for now, but I'm beginning to squirm. From what I understand it takes about a month for a FC to hold again. Is there anything I can do to speed up this process? Is the bound chlorine still effective (like chloramine in drinking water)?
TIA
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
16,587
Mostly just go by the total chlorine and it should eventually go away. Periodically do an OCLT to see if the total chlorine is being kept high enough.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
16,587
The problem is that the sulfamic acid from the Jack's #2 does the same thing as CYA by combining with chlorine.

So, you get a double effect. We don't know what the ratio should be when you have a compound effect like this.

We don't know what the level of sulfamic acid is and we don't know the correct ratio even if we knew what the level was.

So, it's really trial and error. Start off with the fc at the correct fc/cya level and do frequent OCLTs to determine if the fc is adequate.

If it passes the OCLT, the fc is probably adequate. If not, raise the fc until you consistently pass the OCLT.
 

JeanZ1

Bronze Supporter
Aug 15, 2017
67
Newark/DE
The problem is that the sulfamic acid from the Jack's #2 does the same thing as CYA by combining with chlorine.

So, you get a double effect. We don't know what the ratio should be when you have a compound effect like this.

We don't know what the level of sulfamic acid is and we don't know the correct ratio even if we knew what the level was.

So, it's really trial and error. Start off with the fc at the correct fc/cya level and do frequent OCLTs to determine if the fc is adequate.

If it passes the OCLT, the fc is probably adequate. If not, raise the fc until you consistently pass the OCLT.
Got it. Thanks!
 

JoyfulNoise

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
May 23, 2015
15,884
Tucson, AZ
The good news is that chlorosulfamates (both monochloro- and dichlorosulfamate) act as antimicrobial compounds. They have been investigated and patented as alternative acidic bleaching agents. So even though the chlorine gets bound to the sulfamate, there is still some residual disinfecting capability. As @JamesW has said, keeping an eye on your overnight chlorine loss will give you an indication if anything is starting to get out of control.
 

JeanZ1

Bronze Supporter
Aug 15, 2017
67
Newark/DE
The good news is that chlorosulfamates (both monochloro- and dichlorosulfamate) act as antimicrobial compounds. They have been investigated and patented as alternative acidic bleaching agents. So even though the chlorine gets bound to the sulfamate, there is still some residual disinfecting capability. As @JamesW has said, keeping an eye on your overnight chlorine loss will give you an indication if anything is starting to get out of control.
Great, thanks for the info. That's what I was hoping to hear. I'll run an OCLT test tonight.

On a side but related note, the total/combined chlorine is super high. Since there are so many unknowns, should I consider SLAM level for my CYA as the threshold for swimmability, safety wise?

One last question, is UV the only thing that will break down these compounds?
 

JoyfulNoise

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
May 23, 2015
15,884
Tucson, AZ
Great, thanks for the info. That's what I was hoping to hear. I'll run an OCLT test tonight.

On a side but related note, the total/combined chlorine is super high. Since there are so many unknowns, should I consider SLAM level for my CYA as the threshold for swimmability, safety wise?

One last question, is UV the only thing that will break down these compounds?
May not even be UV but just slow chlorine oxidation or a combination of UV and chlorine. Depends a lot on the bond strengths involved and which ones are susceptible to oxidation. It’s similar to cyanuric acid in that regard - the cyanuric acid molecule is susceptible to oxidation by chlorine it’s just an extremely slow reaction rate. That’s why it only degrades very slowly (~ 5ppm/month) for most people. I see higher CYA oxidation rates than most but my pool has very intense UV light exposure all day from the Sun.

You’ll just have to give it time for the CC part of the test to come down. I would use the tabulated shock levels on TFP to guide what is safe - no swimming if TC is above shock level.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
16,587
You could SLAM, but the metal is still in the water and could get oxidized back into a stain. So, a SLAM is not advisable.

How bad was the staining and what metal was it?
 

JeanZ1

Bronze Supporter
Aug 15, 2017
67
Newark/DE
You could SLAM, but the metal is still in the water and could get oxidized back into a stain. So, a SLAM is not advisable.

How bad was the staining and what metal was it?
Staining was not horrible, but noticed a lot of yellow stains (that didn't respond to chlorine) this year, worst at the waterline in the spa. Following the treatment I realize how yellowed all the plaster was. It's so white now!

Stains seemed to be both iron (from fill water) and copper (from ionizer used by previous owners).
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
16,587
Ok, iron will usually respond well to ascorbic acid, which goes away quickly.

Copper usually requires sulfamic acid, but it's pretty stable for a month or two.

At some point, the metal can redeposit as stains. You can use a sequestrant to help keep it from restaining.
 

JoyfulNoise

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
May 23, 2015
15,884
Tucson, AZ
Usually with copper contamination it’s best to just bite the bullet, dissolve the stains and then dump the pool water and refill with metal free water. The unfortunate aspect of copper is that staining can be highly variable and depends on a lot of factors so you could be good for a while then wake up to brown patches again. Without knowing how much copper is actually in the water, you can’t know how sensitive you’ll be to the stains reoccurring. Iron is a pain too but it can be more easily treated. Filtering iron out of your well water with a whole house filter is the best option if you can afford it and assuming your well isn’t highly contaminated with iron.

If you don’t get rid of the copper, then you’ll be forever messing with stain removers and metal sequestering agents. “Pay me know or pay me later” but either way you’re going to pay for it.
 

JeanZ1

Bronze Supporter
Aug 15, 2017
67
Newark/DE
Ok, iron will usually respond well to ascorbic acid, which goes away quickly.

Copper usually requires sulfamic acid, but it's pretty stable for a month or two.

At some point, the metal can redeposit as stains. You can use a sequestrant to help keep it from restaining.
Is there a particular sequestrate recommended by TFP?
 

JeanZ1

Bronze Supporter
Aug 15, 2017
67
Newark/DE
Usually with copper contamination it’s best to just bite the bullet, dissolve the stains and then dump the pool water and refill with metal free water.
Well, it looks like I'll be doing a water exchange in a couple of weeks (we've got guests coming soon) because I'd be very ****** to see those stains reappear. Not to mention pool has be unswimmable for 2 weeks! in summer!!!

Good news, no loss on the OCLT last night.
 

JoyfulNoise

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
May 23, 2015
15,884
Tucson, AZ
Also, given your location, utilize rainwater as much as you can to help fill the pool. If you have any gutters with down spouts nearby, redirect rainwater to the pool. It’s metal and mineral-free water and a good rainstorm can easily add a few inches of water at a time to your pool. The filter can handle any sediment it might pick up along the way. Anything you can to reduce the metal concentration will make the return of the stains a lot less likely.
 

JeanZ1

Bronze Supporter
Aug 15, 2017
67
Newark/DE
Just be careful about any draining because a pool can float if the ground water is high.
Duly noted. In fact we have a very high groundwater level here. Took me awhile to figure out what looked liked small white recessed knobs in the pool (3 of them) are actually pressure relief valves. I will try the differential temp method I've seen MKnauss talk about to do an exchange.
 

JeanZ1

Bronze Supporter
Aug 15, 2017
67
Newark/DE
Also, given your location, utilize rainwater as much as you can to help fill the pool. If you have any gutters with down spouts nearby, redirect rainwater to the pool. It’s metal and mineral-free water and a good rainstorm can easily add a few inches of water at a time to your pool. The filter can handle any sediment it might pick up along the way. Anything you can to reduce the metal concentration will make the return of the stains a lot less likely.
Excellent Idea! I have 2 downspouts I can redirect to the pool.
 

danobrien

Bronze Supporter
Jun 10, 2017
37
Cold Spring/NY
Matt and James, Thanks so much for taking the time to help me through this, it's truly appreciated. I've learned a lot too!
I am pretty frustrated with Jack's magic Copper and Scale treatment. It cleared up my stains too, but after 10 weeks I still have no FC reading and I'm having difficulty with getting a combined chlorine level. First I add r-0870 powder and it stays clear. Then I add r-0003 and color turns red. Drops of r-0871 clears it, but if I keep spinning it turns red again. I have to repeat the process several times for the solution to finally stay clear. So I don't know which measurement to take for the CC? Are you getting an FC reading? What test kit are you using?