Installing water bond in filter basket?

monfresh

Active member
May 30, 2018
38
Vienna, VA
Pool Size
28500
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Open up the J-Box with the light off and see if there is a bare copper bonding wire connected inside.
This is what I see with the top cover off. I don't think I see any bare copper wire.
 

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ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
29,059
Northern NJ
Pool Size
35000
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Chlorine
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Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
The wire in the lower left looks like a bare copper bonding wire. Figure out where the other end gos.

J-Box Bond Wire.jpeg
 

monfresh

Active member
May 30, 2018
38
Vienna, VA
Pool Size
28500
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
At first glance, it didn't look like a bare wire, but when I zoomed in on the photo, I had the same thought as you. So I opened it back up and felt it and it does feel like bare copper wire, and if you look in the last photo of the underside of the J-box, you can see the bare wire traveling down that pole along with the red and white wires. So, I think it probably is connected to the bonding grid.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,208
That wire is not bare copper, it is a green insulated ground wire.

The junction box is not bonded and it does not need to be bonded.

The thick green wire at the top is a bonding jumper/ground, which is a ground that is connected to the internal lug in the niche, which is connected to the external bonding lug for the niche.

So, technically, it is bonded.

The light niche should be bonded from the back bond lug, which you can't see.

The niche serves as the water bond.

Below, you can see the bond wire.

Any external lug (left arrow) is a bond lug and it gets connected to the bond wire by a copper split bolt like at the right arrow.

If something comes with an external lug, bond it.

If it does not come with a lug, you do not need to bond it.

1631986722382.png

In the below picture the green line is the internal bonding jumper which is a #8 green insulated ground wire.

The brown line is a bare copper bond wire.

They both connect to the same lug assembly that goes through the niche.

So, the niche is double bonded.

1631986907973.png


1631987257760.png
 
Last edited:

Mike1162

Silver Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
1,103
N Tonawanda, NY
What's the electrician charging to upgrade to 40 amps? It might be cheaper to ditch the Polaris & booster pump & purchase a robot. The robot will also use a lot less electricity than running the filter pump & booster just to vacuum the pool.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,208
#1 is the bonding jumper/ground.

#2 is what bare copper looks like.

#3 is an insulated green ground wire.

If you loosen the screw and pull the wire out, you would see that it is an insulated wire.

1631988339728.png
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,208
The light niche will be metal or plastic.

If it's metal, that is the water bond.

If it is plastic, it will have a metal strip that is the water bond.

Below, you can see the inside and outside lugs.
1631988953748.png
1631988918043.png
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,208
In this video, you can see how the light comes out and you can see the internal green bonding jumper.

 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,208
The black cord is the pool light power cord.

The green wire is the light bonding jumper (#8 green insulated ground).

The point where the green wire connects to the lug is covered in a potting compound to protect it from corrosion.

1631989458679.png
 

monfresh

Active member
May 30, 2018
38
Vienna, VA
Pool Size
28500
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
What's the electrician charging to upgrade to 40 amps? It might be cheaper to ditch the Polaris & booster pump & purchase a robot. The robot will also use a lot less electricity than running the filter pump & booster just to vacuum the pool.
Funny you should ask. I've been contemplating the same thing and putting together a list of pros and cons for the Polaris 380 + booster vs robot. The electrican is quoting $975 for the stuff below:

"Disconnect and remove existing conduit, wire and 20 amp circuit breaker powering 100 amp pool panel. Install one 40 amp Cutler Hammer double pole GFI circuit breaker and three conductors #6 CU with #8 CU ground wire in 3/4" flexible conduit to pool panel. Disconnect existing filter pump and connect new pump to service panel with double pole breaker sized to new pump specifications. Existing chlorinator to remain connected to existing timer and circuit breaker. Connect new filter pump motor to common bond wire. It's recommended that the pool water connects to common bond wire.. Water bond generally installs in filter basket. Customer to provide and install water bond in filter basket and we will connect #8 common bond wire to ground pool water."

Here is my pros/cons list that I came up with so far. Did I miss anything?

380 pros​

  • can leave it in the pool all the time and have it run on a timer every day

380 cons​

  • requires pump to be running, and for 30 minutes before it starts
  • If for some reason I need to take it out of the pool while leaving the deck clear, it's cumbersome to put away and then put back in
  • doesn't scrub
  • requires booster pump that is loud and not energy efficient, although there is a newer quieter and energy efficient booster pump: PB4SQ for $428
  • requires upgrading electrical panel if I want to be able to run pump, polaris, and SWCG at the same time. lowest quote I've gotten so far is $800, which only includes replacing the breaker in the main panel and running the wire to the subpanel. Other quote is $975 and includes wiring up new pump and adding a dedicated breaker in the subpanel.

Robot pros​

  • does not require pump to be running or booster pump.
  • does not require upgrading electrical panel
  • can use it whenever by plugging it in and letting it go
  • easier to put away and back in
  • energy efficient
  • scrubs
  • easier to clean than 380

Robot cons​

  • cannot leave in the pool. have to take it out and put back in every day.
  • some models, like Alpha IQ+, are more expensive upfront than upgrading panel
 

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ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
29,059
Northern NJ
Pool Size
35000
Surface
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Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
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Pentair Intellichlor IC-60

380 cons​

  • requires pump to be running, and for 30 minutes before it starts

Never heard of needing the pump running 30 minutes before it starts. Where is that specified?

  • doesn't scrub

The foam tail scrubs the pool surfaces. You do have the black foam on the tail? My foam tail scrubs well enough that it needs to be replaced during the season.

  • requires booster pump that is loud and not energy efficient, although there is a newer quieter and energy efficient booster pump: PB4SQ for $428

The booster pump only runs 2-3 hours a day. That is maybe $0.40/day of electricity for me.

  • requires upgrading electrical panel if I want to be able to run pump, polaris, and SWCG at the same time. lowest quote I've gotten so far is $800, which only includes replacing the breaker in the main panel and running the wire to the subpanel. Other quote is $975 and includes wiring up new pump and adding a dedicated breaker in the subpanel.

The panel electrical upgrade also gets your pool up to code with a GFCI CB for your pool pump.
 

monfresh

Active member
May 30, 2018
38
Vienna, VA
Pool Size
28500
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Never heard of needing the pump running 30 minutes before it starts. Where is that specified?
It's in the manual for the booster:

"If a time clock is used, set it to turn the pump on half an hour after the pool filtration pump is turned on, and turn the pump off at least half an hour before the filtration pump shuts off."

Perhaps they meant that for safety to give a buffer in case the timers get out of sync.
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
29,059
Northern NJ
Pool Size
35000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
It's in the manual for the booster:

"If a time clock is used, set it to turn the pump on half an hour after the pool filtration pump is turned on, and turn the pump off at least half an hour before the filtration pump shuts off."

Perhaps they meant that for safety to give a buffer in case the timers get out of sync.

Yup, because the context is...

If a time clock is used, set it to turn the pump on half
an hour after the pool filtration pump is turned on, and
turn the pump off at least half an hour before the filtration
pump shuts off. Periodically check the time clock
settings to make sure they are properly synchronized.


Keep the filter pump and boost pump timers in synch and the 30 minute buffer is not necessary.
 
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monfresh

Active member
May 30, 2018
38
Vienna, VA
Pool Size
28500
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
The panel electrical upgrade also gets your pool up to code with a GFCI CB for your pool pump.
That's a good point. I need to do that regardless. Since the old pump is on its way out, I want to get the new pump installed as soon as possible, so I think what I'll ask the electrician to do for now is replace the two 20A breakers in the subpanel with 3 new GFCI ones: one double-pole for the new VS pump, one double-pole for the SWCG/Intermatic, and a single-pole for the Polaris booster.

One thing I was wondering was if there is space to add another double-pole breaker. The electrician said yes, but I think they would have to be rearranged. The way it is now, I think only a single-pole can fit to the right of the last breaker, and I think there is space for another to the left of the first one. Looking at the photo of the subpanel cover, the way it has those 2 closed slots on either side might support that theory. I'll take a look tomorrow.
 

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ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
29,059
Northern NJ
Pool Size
35000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
replace the two 20A breakers in the subpanel with 3 new GFCI ones: one double-pole for the new VS pump, one double-pole for the SWCG/Intermatic, and a single-pole for the Polaris booster.

If your Polaris PB4-60Q Booster Pump runs on 120V then you can change your RJ60 to also run on 120V and replace the T104 with a T101.

Then you have three 120V CB's and room for the 20A GFCI 240V CB for your new VS pump.
 

Auburn02

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2019
265
Mobile, AL
There is also this one but it should not be used in an in ground pool... only in above ground pool and really it should never be used...

WHY YOU SAY...

This one uses the water in the pipe to bond the water... what happens when you have no running water in the pipe.. Your pool is no longer bonded... You and your family and the pool are no longer protected.. Bonding is meant to keep everyone safe at all times and this one does not... If and when you winterize, pump broken, pump off, power outage, there are tons of reasons this should never be used...

WHY DO I PUT THIS ONE IN HERE...

Because someone will find it and use it thinking they are good to go and they are not...
You never provided the link for this last option you referenced, which I suspect is the one that I have, but I would add a caveat that if it is installed in a pipe that is below the pool water level, then the pipe will have water in it and the water will be bonded. Suspect there are many who install it on raised pipes at the pad though which, as you referenced, may often be dry.

To the OP and given the extensive opinions of ajw22 and JamesW, it sure seems like you may already have a proper water bond. I imagine I would ask the electrician to prove to you that you don't if he insists on charging you to add it.

Oh and I also agree with not having a GFCI 40 amp breaker added at the main panel to feed the subpanel, but instead have the 20a breaker in the subpanel replaced with GFCI if it is not already.
 
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