I have a lot to learn! Indoor pool

[Bill W.]

Hello Everyone,

I grew up on a farm in West Tennessee. When I got old enough, I joined the Navy. After 6 years, I got out and went to Purdue to get a BS in Computer & Electrical Engineering.
Last year, I finished building a VERY, VERY unusual house with an indoor pool. (no water yet)
When I say that "I built it", I don't mean I hired a builder and crew to build it, I mean I literally designed and built it myself. I did hire a plumber and HVAC guy to do those things. I did the rest.
I did hire some people to help me do some of the larger manual labor tasks, like placing concrete for the slabs and driveway.
(almost impossible for one person to do those things by themself)

Before I installed the flat concrete roof, a crane operator lowered a 14x30 fiberglass shell into a carefully contoured hole on the 2nd floor to accommodate the shell.
I then plumbed the shell and back-filled the empty space around it with crushed gravel. I bonded the pool and decking rebar, then placed coping forms on the shell and poured my concrete decking.
Since there was no water in the shell, in order to keep the walls from bulging inward from the pressure from the back-fill gravel, I placed sheets of OSB along the interior walls of the shell and placed support bracing between opposing walls to keep them from collapsing inward. Once I fill it with water, I will no longer need the support bracing and they can simply be removed.

Since I designed and built this house myself on a tight budget, I've had to prioritize all tasks to fit my schedule and cash flow (income).
After 4 years of hard work, I have finally worked my way down that prioritized list to getting the pool ready to open.
I am now researching which pump, filter, and water "sanitizer/purifier/disinfectant" system to purchase.
Currently, I am leaning towards purchasing a good quality name-brand (expensive) variable speed pump and large cartridge filter to match my size pool.

As for the water "sanitizer/purifier/disinfectant" system, I would like to avoid using chlorine. (obviously that includes salt water systems)
I realize that this goes against most members' belief that chlorine is the only way to go, and I *DO* realize that I may have to resort to using a small amount of chlorine at times, but I am trying to avoid using chlorine for all of the obvious reasons.
I believe that chlorine and especially it's by-products even in small amounts are not good for you and should be avoided, if at all possible. (again, my humble opinion and belief)
Besides, being indoors and currently with little to no ventilation, a chlorinated pool will likely fill the room with that well-known odor and could even be dangerous to breath.
Yes, I am considering different alternatives to provide conditioned (heat/cool/dehumidify) air and fresh air ventilation to the pool room.
I have looked at *SO MANY* of those "chlorine-free" systems which typically use electrolysis with various element rods (titanium, copper, silver, etc.). Most of them mention "NASA-based" technology.
I have read *SO MANY* testimonials where people either *LOVE* or *HATE* every one of them.

When I designed and built this house, I PURPOSEFULLY isolated the pool room from the rest of the house and it's HVAC central air system. For access to the pool room from the interior, I installed an exterior door with good gasket seals to prevent any air leakage. In all the walls, I placed insulation and a GOOD quality vapor barrier on the INTERIOR (pool side) of the walls. The pool room is COMPLETELY hermetically sealed from the rest of the house. I added 3 large triple-pane argon-filled windows along the exterior wall to provide additional lighting and ambiance. When we can afford it, I plan to install a 20' long "accordion" folding glass door in the Southern exterior wall. This will allow sunlight to come in during the Winter and provide some heat to the water, which I can then use to help heat the house. (the pool pump will be located in my HVAC utility closet where the water will be heated/cooled by my custom "one-of-a-kind" geothermal heatpump. In addition to providing central air conditioning, the heatpump also heats the domestic hot water tank and radiant floor heating water tank.)

BTW, I see several key advantages to having a pool indoors:
- There should be almost *NO* debris in my skimmer basket or filter!
- I won't have to worry as much about evaporation
- The sun and rain won't mess-up the water chemistry
- We should be able to swim any time of day or night, year around!
- I should never have to "close" or "re-open" the pool

Sorry for my long-winded post. I actually left out a *TON* of details!
I welcome any and all advice.
I would post pictures, but I'm currently storing wood boards for shelving and trim in the pool room, so it's not pretty. (It's my temporary shop until I open the pool)
Anyway, I look forward to reading different posts and learning all I can about caring for a pool. (I've got a *LOT* to learn! You almost have to be a chemist!)

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

Please read Alternative sanitizers and "chemical free" pools--The Truth!

You need to focus on how you ensure the pool water is sanitary and that there is scientific proof of the sanitation.

 

[Newdude]

being indoors and currently with little to no ventilation, a chlorinated pool will likely fill the room with that well-known odor and could even be dangerous to breath.

The only time a pool smells like chlorine is when it is burning off organic matter. The experts here will help you not have algae. Then all you have to do is not pee in the pool. With an indoor pool in your house you will be having less blowout parties so you really wont have too much body sweat/oils left behind either. You'll have no organics and therefore be odor free.

P.s. Every aspect of your post deserves pics. Dunno if the pool or the geothermal is more unique but they are both cool as heck and cant wait to see them once its all cleaned up. None of us will care that your temporary shop is a mess.

 

[kimkats]

WOW!!! MORE details please!! and pics............believe me we will not judge!

 

[ajw22]

Some things for you to think about...

Before I installed the flat concrete roof, a crane operator lowered a 14x30 fiberglass shell into a carefully contoured hole on the 2nd floor to accommodate the shell.

Is the pool on the 2nd floor? Or did you lower it down past the 2nd floor into the ground level?

I am now researching which pump, filter, and water "sanitizer/purifier/disinfectant" system to purchase.
Currently, I am leaning towards purchasing a good quality name-brand (expensive) variable speed pump and large cartridge filter to match my size pool.

VS pump and largest cartridge filter you can get makes sense.

How is your geothermal heater going to be controlled? No automation control panel?

Consider a UV system to get CC's out of your pool water.

Understand what warranty you get on that expensive VS pump if you DIY. Most of the major pool manufacturers have clamped down on DIY and Internet sales with reduced warranty's.

As for the water "sanitizer/purifier/disinfectant" system, I would like to avoid using chlorine. (obviously that includes salt water systems)
I realize that this goes against most members' belief that chlorine is the only way to go, and I *DO* realize that I may have to resort to using a small amount of chlorine at times, but I am trying to avoid using chlorine for all of the obvious reasons.
I believe that chlorine and especially it's by-products even in small amounts are not good for you and should be avoided, if at all possible. (again, my humble opinion and belief)

We have many threads on this if you do some searches. You need to decide between scientifically proven sanitation versus your beliefs.

Stay away from any system that uses minerals, silver, or copper as they will build up in your pool water and eventually lead to stains on your pool. I think that eliminates most alternative sanitizers.

Besides, being indoors and currently with little to no ventilation, a chlorinated pool will likely fill the room with that well-known odor and could even be dangerous to breath.

Do you intend to fill your pool before you have your pool room HVAC system operational?

Biggest challenge of an indoor pool is managing humidity. You need to get the HVAC system working before you fill the pool.

At the chlorine levels used in pools the indoor air will never get dangerous to breathe. Chlorine in pools only has the chlorine smell when Combined Chlorines are in the water. I suggest you read ...

CC - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Yes, I am considering different alternatives to provide conditioned (heat/cool/dehumidify) air and fresh air ventilation to the pool room.

That takes an experienced HVAC designer who can understand the room environment across the seasons. The temperature of the air versus the water has a big effect on the humidity in the room.

Will you have a pool cover? Covering the water makes a bit difference in evaporation and room humidity.

I have looked at *SO MANY* of those "chlorine-free" systems which typically use electrolysis with various element rods (titanium, copper, silver, etc.). Most of them mention "NASA-based" technology.
I have read *SO MANY* testimonials where people either *LOVE* or *HATE* every one of them.

Please don't fall for the marketing hype. As an engineer look for the science basis between them.

What works on the closed system of a spacecraft and what works on the open system of a residential pool is very different. Astronauts take many risks that are not risks you should expose to swimmers in your pool.

(the pool pump will be located in my HVAC utility closet where the water will be heated/cooled by my custom "one-of-a-kind" geothermal heatpump. In addition to providing central air conditioning, the heatpump also heats the domestic hot water tank and radiant floor heating water tank.)

How will you integrate the geothermal pool heat with the VS pump speed controls? This is typically done by a pool automation system. You need to decide on the overall system design before you start buying equipment to ensure everything is compatible.

Pool pumps and filters need to be in a "wet room". They leak. They spay water. Can other equipment in your HVAC closet get damaged by leaks from your pool equipment?

You have drains in the HVAC room? Even though a cartridge filter does not require a Multipurpose valve it may make sense to put one in so you can Drain to waste or Recirculate cleanly without letting water out in your HVAC room.

How will you drain you pool if needed.

Overall, plan out all the water management with your pool and pool equipment.

Where will you safely store chemicals used in your pool?

BTW, I see several key advantages to having a pool indoors:
- There should be almost *NO* debris in my skimmer basket or filter!
- I won't have to worry as much about evaporation
- The sun and rain won't mess-up the water chemistry
- We should be able to swim any time of day or night, year around!
- I should never have to "close" or "re-open" the pool

I will wait until you discover the key disadvantages of an indoor pool. A search will let you find members with indoor pools and you can read about their problems.

 

[Bill W.]

ajw22, I've read that article before. Quite frankly, I found it "heavy-handed". While the author did a great job of showing the downfalls of non-primary sanitizers, she/he failed to mention any of chlorine's problems. I would think an honest/fair evaluation should include all of the "pros/cons" of any proposed solution.
Personally, I see chlorine as really being the "lesser of two evils".
Realistically, Chlorine and, more directly, it's by-products can, and do, cause cancer. (scientific fact, not just my opinion)

Newdude, you can't have it both ways. Either the chlorine is necessary to kill organics and will then produce bi-products which are carcinogenic and produce an odor, or you don't have much organics to begin with and may not need chlorine at all, or at least not much of it. In the latter case, the extra "un-needed" chlorine is mostly there as a preventative measure just in case a fecal incident or other organic event happens such that you need a good residual sanitizer to "save the day" before it makes it into someone's mouth 10 seconds later. I think that is the risk that the author eluded to.

So while, yes, someone who does not use a primary sanitizer in their pool runs the risk of having a pathogen invade the pool and making someone sick, we should be fully transparent and mention that swimming in something as strong as chlorine is capable of causing health issues as well.
I don't think there have been any serious studies about the short and long-term health affects of swimming in chlorinated pools.
If anyone knows of any, PLEASE reply and post a link. I would love to review their findings.

I've often wondered why America, being the most advanced country in the world, also has one of the highest cancer rates in the world.
Is it our diet of heavily-processed foods, or maybe the added chlorine and its many carcinogenic by-products in our water supply?
Other, less-developed countries typically have lower cancer rates, don't process their foods near as much, and usually don't add flouride or chlorine to their water. And, yes, some of them die each year from water-borne pathogens. So, are we simply trading one health issue for another? One being very visible and immediate, while the other is more subtle/hidden and may take years to develop.

Yes, I will admit that the chance of getting sick from a pathogen (organic) in a pool is probably *MUCH* higher than getting cancer from chlorine and it's bi-products.
But, it is still an undeniable probability, albeit low.
I think this is the same argument that our government makes when they choose to add chlorine to our water supply.
I think it's all about statistics and probability when dealing with public health.
That's what I meant by, "Lesser of two evils".

 

[duraleigh]

Personally, I see chlorine as really being the "lesser of two evils"

What's the other one?

 

[Bill W.]

ajw22,
First off, thanks for all the advice.
To answer your questions...

Yes, the pool is on the 2nd floor. Yes, the "bowl" of the shell descends down into the 1st floor. I couldn't dig a hole at the 1st floor level because my house sits on bedrock. (would have required a lot of drilling and/or blasting) I had designed a thick plexiglass viewing port to look into the pool from the 1st floor, but I never got time during the build to actually implement it.

Yes, I've seen where the pump manufacturers provide different warranties to their "professionally-installed" pumps, versus those you can obtain through the web for a DIY'er like myself.

My geothermal heatpump has temperature input sensors for the pool water, the domestic hot water tank, the radiant floor heating tank, and a thermostat for each of the 4 zones of central air.
I personally placed loops of PEX in the concrete sub-floor of all 4 of my bathrooms, the Master bedroom, and the kitchen/living room downstairs for radiant floor heating. I placed 4" thick Styrofoam insulation under my main slab to decrease thermal loss. My 12" thick concrete walls have 8" thick Styrofoam inside for R-30 and 10" in my roof for R-40 thermal resistance.

BTW, *ANY* open-loop system which does not monitor the levels that it is producing has the potential of running amok. That goes for SWCG's as well.
The levels of metal ions required to stain are pretty high. Needless to say, I will want to have a closed-loop feedback controlling the output of any sanitizing system that I install.
(even if I have to design it myself)

As for my pool's HVAC system, it's coming down to budget and my wife's lack of patience. Most HVAC systems are simply not designed to handle removing such large quantities of moisture from the air. I will likely have to supplement the HVAC with a dehumidifier to help it out. (the removed water can simply be returned to the pool)

Yes, I do eventually plan to implement some type of automated pool cover for the reasons that you mentioned. But, that may be awhile. (working on other more pressing matters at this time)

As for my HVAC/pool equipment utility room, I hope you've noticed by now that I am the type of person that researches and plans ahead. (not perfect, just trying to anticipate)
When I designed and built the utility room, I envisioned having all of my "wet" items (geothermal pump, 3 water tanks, pool pump & filter, etc.) in there.
Therefore, I added 2" thickness to my 4" slab and sloped the entire floor to a centralized drain in the middle. The concrete floor has been made waterproof and has a lip on all sides to contain water spills. Yes, I expect changing my canister filter will spill some water, but I'll take them outside to clean them.
As far as I know, nothing in the utility closet can be hurt by the occasional spray of water.

As for draining the pool, my main drain has a plug in the bottom for letting the water out. My pool shell is surrounded by 12' tall, 12" thick cast-in-place concrete retaining walls.
I placed clean crushed gravel in the bottom of this concrete "holder" and put french drains along the bottom to collect the water and take it out to the ditch at the street.
When I first installed the pool shell, before I had a roof, it rained quite heavily and I watched the water collect in the pool, go down the pool drain and out the pipe to the street.
So, I already know that this works. If the pool shell were ever to be compromised (crack!), then the water would be contained within those four thick retaining walls and then drain out to the street. There is literally *TONS* of #5 and #6 rebar stitched in a 9"x9" pattern THROUGHOUT the footer and retaining walls. It ain't going NOWHERE!
I hired a structural engineer to design that for me. He way over-designed it, but he always prepares for the worst-case disastrous scenario. (total failure of water containment by a pool shell situated on the 2nd floor inside a home!) Don't worry, I sleep well at night knowing how strong that wall is. When I was back-filling it with crushed rock, I could actually hang my bobcat by the bucket on that wall! (and it was a LARGE bobcat) The tracks literally came off the ground. I think I have a video.
Besides, the only room nearby on the first floor is the 2-car garage. The garage slab also slopes slightly to the exterior garage doors and down the driveway.

As for storing pool chemicals, I have a closet with door handle lock and two pad-locks in the pool room. (currently has some of my tools in it from when I locked them away from subcontractors "borrowing" them!)

I hope I answered all of your questions. BTW, my flat roof serves as a 4000 sf party/observation deck overlooking the valley below and Tennessee river to the South. (jacuzzi and wet bar to come when I can afford it!)

 

[Yosh]

Interesting... let’s see some pics.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

So you don't use city provided water at all? I'd love to hear what dangers minimum amounts of chlorine pose. To think I have used a bleach like solution on my patients nastiest wounds and they lived to tell about it... musta been luck, huh?

FYI- Fiberglass pools are especially prone to metal stains....keep all copper away from the pool!

 

[Bill W.]

YippeeSkippy, I never said that I don't use city water. I do indeed. I just plan to get a whole house water softener, reverse osmosis, and media filter in the near future. I want to minimize the amount of chlorine and the many other "bad things" from my shower and drinking water.

As for your tongue-in-cheek comment about your patients being lucky... actually, yes they were.
Even arsenic and strychnine can be ingested in small highly-diluted quantities with little risk, yet I would not advise doing it without some very good reason.
Radiation and chemotherapy are *TERRIBLE* for your body, but for cancer patients it is usually better than the alternative.

Any time there is a chance of something bad happening and it doesn't, I would say you were somewhat lucky, even if the odds of it happening were very low.
When you make it home safely from driving your car, you were lucky you weren't involved in an accident. People get killed every day doing just that.
Still, it is the most efficient and practical way for most of us to travel medium distances. Riding a horse on the street might actually be even more dangerous.

 

[Donldson]

Bill, plain and simple TFP only deals in water care that involves the proper use of an EPA approves sanitizer: chlorine, bromine, biguanide. As a private pool you are not required to sanitize your water in any particular way or even sanitize it if you choose. However, your arguments are falling on deaf ears. The science regarding the safety of chlorine and the dangers of unsanitized water is quite extensive and sound, your opinions of these conclusions don't really matter.

If you are intending to follow any water care that is not TFPC then that is your choice to make, but this is not a place for you to argue your unfounded opinions. Plenty of places online you can get your "evil chlorine causes cancer" nonsense echo chamber, it's not here. If you want opinions about your pump and filter then keep it at that.

 

[duraleigh]

A very large +1 to Dnldson's post

 

[proavia]

Bill W. - With all due respect, the title of your post says it all.

 

[Bill W.]

Hey, I started out by saying that I have a lot to learn, and I do. Apparently, some people here believe they know everything and don't want to listen to anything contrary to what they believe to be true. Obviously, the only thing some people here want to hear is that Chlorine can do no harm.
You know, the tobacco industry used to say the same thing. I'm sure there would have been pro-smoking blogs (if not prior to the web) that would have said, "Shut up! Stick with science. There's been no proof that tobacco or nicotine causes any problems! Keep smoking."

I thought I could ask some questions and voice some concerns in an open forum and figure out the best ways to care for my pool.
Now, I'm being told to shut up unless I only talk about things that don't make people uncomfortable.

Right, or wrong, I am entitled to my opinions as I continue to do my research. I'm not trying to sway anyone, one way or the other.
Heck, I'm still undecided. I may actually end up going with a SWCG for the convenience and safety assurances mentioned. I just don't like to be bullied. I want to research and decide for myself.
We do still have "Freedom of Speech" in America, right? (of course, some of you reading this may not actually be in America, but I am)

Since I've obviously deeply offended some of you for even questioning the short and long-term safety of using chlorine, I'll keep those objectionable posts to a minimum on this blog.

BTW, when I was growing up on that farm in Tennessee, my Dad used to tell me that there was nothing wrong with getting a little Round-up or DDT spray in our mouths or on our skin. He said, "They wouldn't be selling it to consumers if it was that unsafe!" He actually died a few years ago of cancer. I can't help but wonder...
(true story, and no, he never smoked... or swam)

 

[Donldson]

Apparently, some people here believe they know everything and don't want to listen to anything contrary to what they believe to be true.

I'm glad you recognize your own shortcomings, it is difficult for most people to admit that.

As I said, what you want to believe is of no concern to anybody but yourself. Your arguments are non sequitur, saying that things have been considered safe but later proven otherwise does not support the implication you believe it does. Rather it only shows that you don't actually have science to back up your opinions and can only attempt to distract the reader with unrelated connections. Your tactics might work elsewhere, but not here. You are bringing empty semantics to a science discussion, an especially common tactic with the chlorine scare-mongering crowd. Frankly I look forward to the day someone actually brings good solid data to such an argument but since they never do I can only conclude that such data is not available. How disappointing.

As I said multiple times: you are extremely free to maintain your personal pool in any manner you see fit. I can't imagine why you feel that it is not enough to exercise that freedom but that you also have to convince us that what you believe is right and that what we believe is wrong. Perhaps you instead must convince yourself? Either way, I'm not a psychologist and you are neither a chemist nor medical doctor. One should recognize the limitations of their expertise, yes?

And to be clear, this is not an "open forum". I'm not sure where you got that idea. TFP is a privately owned forum dedicated to the pool care method known as Trouble Free Pool Care (TFPC). As you are a former military member and graduate of a prestigious institution I would have hoped you would recognize "freedom of speech" is a concept limited to the Constitution of the United States and as TFP is owned and run by private citizens it does not hold the same requirements. Much the way your local health department cannot require you to properly chlorinate your private pool, the First Amendment of the Constitution cannot prevent TFP from deleting/altering/locking your posts.

On that topic, perhaps this thread should be locked. It appears that it has gone far off track of good sound pool care techniques and is unlikely to be returned to such. A new thread, dedicated exclusively to pool hardware, may offer a fresh take on OP's original questions.

 

[Flying Tivo]

Bill
We are here to help, 99.9% of members will guide you with what we know(science) it works. You are free to use it or not. I would rather you stay and show us how you built your pool and if our advice helped or not. Time will be the only judge, not us.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

RIght-o, Felipe..... I'd love to see a home done pool! While I totally disagree with the OP on sanitation, I'm very interested in the construction undertaken.
Please Bill....toss us a bone and let us be amazed by your handiwork! <big brown cow eyes>

Maddie

 

[Rollercoastr]

Dang. I guess I'm too late to this party. I assume Bill W is gone?

I would've liked to participated in this. We'd have a lot to talk about, since my home has a flat roof and an indoor pool on the second level...

 

[Rollercoastr]

I will wait until you discover the key disadvantages of an indoor pool. A search will let you find members with indoor pools and you can read about their problems.

As one of the more prolific indoor folks around here (although not THE most by a longshot), I struggle with the mention of "key disadvantages" and "problems"...

Indoor pools have challenges for sure, but I'd like people to know that they can also be very, very, I mean ridiculously low-maintenance and thereby low cost.

I can't really think of anything I'd classify as a "problem."

Challenges include:

replacement air. In my setup, ventilation is easy but in single-digit outside temps, replacement air is an issue.

Little if any sun

I can't allow diving or jumping. It gets walls wet.

I have to put "backwash the filter" on my calendar, or it could go years without building pressure. If I add too much FC, it can take forever to drop...