How do I backwash this

sdtfp

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How do I backwash the pictured system? Last time I opened the backwash bucket the net in there was good and clean.

I am guessing, turn off pump, switch to backwash on main knob and then switch the bottom nob to have off point to return line. Then turn on pump for 90 seconds. I should see clear water or maybe cloudy coming out of the bottom T .
Then switch main knob to filter and turn on pump for 90 seconds. I should see clear water coming out of the bottom T.

I'll repeat about 3 times. Then finally switch main knob to filter and bottom know to original position.

One other question is that during normal operation it appears to me that this tank gets filled with water and then returns in to the return line. Is that normal? Intuitively, I would expect it to be bypassed during filter operation. Or do I have it setup wrong?
 

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crusemm

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can you take another couple pictures, one to the right and another from the top of your selector valve
 

ajw22

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Jul 21, 2013
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Northern NJ
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Pump off
BACKWASH
Pump On
Run for 1-2 minutes or so
Pump off
RINSE
Pump On
Run for 1-2 minutes or so
Pump off
Repeat for 3 times

Then FILTER
Pump On
Add DE
Note clean PSI

Always turn the MPV selector in the same direction.
 

sdtfp

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sdtfp

Gold Supporter
Jun 4, 2020
76
NYC
Pool Size
18000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Liquid Chlorine
Pump off
BACKWASH
Pump On
Run for 1-2 minutes or so
Pump off
RINSE
Pump On
Run for 1-2 minutes or so
Pump off
Repeat for 3 times

Then FILTER
Pump On
Add DE
Note clean PSI

Always turn the MPV selector in the same direction.
If I do it this way, won't the water in the separation tank be returned to the pool, so I don't waste any water? Is this a good thing, as I see backwash videos always flooding the ground.

What does rinse do exactly? Where does the water go?

And at what point should I clean the separation tank?
 

ajw22

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Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
If I do it this way, won't the water in the separation tank be returned to the pool, so I don't waste any water? Is this a good thing, as I see backwash videos always flooding the ground.

I don't know how your tank is setup. My tank drains to my sewer line.

What does rinse do exactly? Where does the water go?

Rinse send the water out the waste line.

And at what point should I clean the separation tank?

After you are done with the backwash.
 

sdtfp

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I don't know how your tank is setup. My tank drains to my sewer line
I'm not sure if you saw it, but there is a handy valve on the pipe going to the bottom of the separation tank. 1 port is to open air, one port is to the separation tank and 1 port is to the pool return.
If you zoom in, the port to the separation tank says inlet. So right now the port to open air is closed by the candy valve.
If I put that handy valve to the separation tank inlet, to essentially close the inlet and open up to air, I assume the main valve has to be set to waste or rinse.
If I put that handy valve to turn off the return port, I assume this means I want to empty the separation tank.

So I think I want to set multi valve to backwash and jandy valve to close return port. But it's not clear in my head how that work. Does backwash come out of the filter outlet or inlet?
 

ajw22

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You are going to need to experiment and see how it works for you.
 

sdtfp

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Jun 4, 2020
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After looking up some videos, I think what I have is a way to return water back into the pool during backwash or rinse. Should that be used? I didn't get a backwash hose with the pool and the pool techs said they never backwash, they just rather clean the filter with a hose twice a year.

My confusion is two fold. First the bottom pipe of the separation tank has "inlet" on the jandy valve, but it's actually an outlet I think. And secondly, when the multiplier is on filter, the jandy valve is allowing the return to also connect to the outlet of the separation tank. So maybe that is only for backwash/filter back into pool. So instead I need the jandy valve to close off the return connection when on filter mode. But I think I tried that and the jandy valve waste port was leaking. Maybe I had some old water in there. I'll have to investigate.
Now I'm thinking I had that valve in the wrong position so I was letting the return go into the separation tank? Hope I didn't break anything.
 

ajw22

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The INLET marking on the Jandy valve is meaningless. Ignore it.
 

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sdtfp

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okay so i did some expirement and I think I was correct. The separation tank was full of water because I had the jandy valve connecting the separation tank outlet to the filter outlet/pool return while the multiport was in filter mode and the pump running continuously. Again I am not sure if that is a bad thing, the only thing i've noticed is that I've had some high pressure but I am also mid SLAM so the high pressure is expected.

Now I've tried to set thing rights and to isolate the separation tank while multiport is in filter mode. But now the port to open air has a stead stream of water. Which means the jandy valve is not properly sealing again the connection to the return line. I am trying to play around with it to see if I can align the stars and stop the leak. First time using a jandy valve but I can clearly hear air when I have it slightly off centered and hear nothing when its dead center. Still the stream comes out when it's dead center. I am looking up videos to see if a jandy valve has an oring or somethign I can lubricated to see if I can get a good seal.
 

sdtfp

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I foudn some videos and I just finished taking the jandy valve apart and lubricating it. It definitely needed lubrication but the orings seem to be in good shape. However, after all of that, there was no change. But i did discover that if I start the system with the jandy valve in the right position, I can get the leak to a trikle. Whereas if I use the jandy valve during operation, it becomes more of a stream. So I am going to order some oring replacements and try again when that arrives.

One thing I am not sure about is whether the orings have anything to do with it. I'm not getting a leak from the top of the jandy valve, so dont think the orings are leaking. I am getting a leak from the shield blocking the water from the filter/pool return. I got a knife and took out the gunk that was pretty loose on that shield and then I filled it with lube all around the face and ridges and then more lube through the grease knob. It does turn smoother now but still the trickle of water comes through it. Maybe I didn't put enough lube or maybe there is some crusty residue somewhere stoping the seal from forming... maybe even inside the pipe? Anyhow, I think I'll wait for the oring replacements and look at some more videos and then tackle this again later this week.
 

sdtfp

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Looking around some more, I see that the jandy valve shield has a square ring around it. Mine didnt have that, just some gunk, which I removed and replaced with lube since I assumed it was dried up lube. Is there a way to replace that square ring? I only see oring replacements. And is that my problem? If I have to replace the whole thing, do I need to go for a neverlube version?
 

sdtfp

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Parts list, I believe for your Non-Never-Lube valves. Jandy support website. I believe you need part 3045 or here
thanks I was just looking around for this. There is no part number on the actual item and non-neverlube seems to be outdate so I wasn't finding it. I still don't know if this is the part other than it says it's for a gray jandy valve, but it's free returns on amazon, so I will give this a go and hopefully it will stay a trickly until this arrives.
 

sdtfp

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okay so I got the replacement non-never-lube valve and it didn't fix the issue. It looks exactly like what I have but it's worse. The old one has a drip and this is more like a medium leak. After looking at it a bit, I realized my old one is fine, its not damaged, its just that the square o-ring is black whereas on the one it is white. I had seen pictures online and it was always white so I figured my old one was missing that.

So why the drip? I noticed the face of the diverter doesnt sit flush with the jandy valve opening. It's like 1 or 2 mm off for the old part. The new part seems to be 2 or 3 mm apart (these are estimates). So my guess is that the gray jandy valve body I have is either not the standard size or maybe it has expanded over time? Or maybe a jandy valve can't work in this situation to stop a return line? I'm not sure, but how did this ever work?

Well, I hope I figured that out. As a last resort, I tried putting a plug on the open air opening. I only ran the pump for like 10 minutes because it was after hours, but that seems to have stopped the drip/leak. So this made me realize that this port must have been plugged to begin with and I must of removed it when the pool was closed because I wanted air to get in there over the winter. So my guess is that with this "hack", the jandy valve leaks into the separation tank until that fills and then the pressure from that pushes back on the jandy valve diverter. In other words, when the open air port is unplugged, the full return pressure breaks the seal on the jandy valve and there is a leak. When that port is plugged, it causes the leak to fill up the separantion tank and that in turn will equalize the pressure on the return line without pushing the plug out. The other reason I think this is how it originally was is because I remember finding the separation tank filled when I first got the pool and I knew the previous owner and the pool techs didnt use that feature, so I couldn't figure out how the water got in there.

See the attached picture for how i left it now. So now what are my options? I can think of...
1. Look for another diverter and hope it fits better
2. Replace the whole jandy valve - requires plumber i think but looks kinda simple here (
). However, how do I know the next jandy valve will work. Seems like this is a none standard setup and maybe jandy valves just cant work this way? This seems nice Custom Molded Products 3-Way Valve with Unions, 2" Inside Clear CPVC - 25923-209-000 - INYOPools.com
3. get plumber to install a way to shutoff this return line on demand. AFAIK this return line connection is only used to feed water from the separation tank to the pool. And I don't see a use for that.
4. get a plumber to change whole setup such that the separation tank outlet can only go to open air and never back in the pool. So removing the T on the return line and removing the jandy valve. Maybe I could do this but pretty scared to try something like that during pool season.

3&4 are similar and a bit painful because plumbers cost a leg and arm around here and they are hard to get a hold of.

P.S one think I noticed about the jandy valve is that the lube screw hole doesnt actually come out into the valve. Is that normal? I put libe in there thinking it would hit the diverter on the face, but when I opened it, there is no opening there so there is no way that I can see where that lube comes out to make contact with the diverter. Am I missing something?
 

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crusemm

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Sep 1, 2011
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North Texas
Let's take a look at this another way. What is that line for? It's a backwash line from your DE filter. It's there so you can backwash your filter when the DE get's dirty. What is the tank for? So you can trap the DE that you backwash. This is done either to prevent putting DE in a storm drain or so you can re-use the pool water. Re-using pool water is useful in places where water is expensive or requires processing to be useful. If your backwash line doesn't go into a storm drain then you don't have to worry about that. The tank may also be required by your local municipality, though I don't know why. Used DE is great for your yard/garden so shouldn't be an issue with discharging on the ground. So as I see it your options are:
1. Cut the line before it goes to the tank, setup a hose and for discharge to your yard (This is what I have, I don't have a Backwash filter tank). cut and cap the line from the tank back to your pool on the pool side.
2. Leave it as is with that plug installed, it's not going to be an issue 99% of the time. When your ready to backwash, if your not going back to the pool, remove the plug.
3. If you want to only go back to the pool, install a cap or isolation valve.
4. Install an isolation valve anyway, just make sure if you are backwashing through that line, that the valve is open.

There is another unadressed issue here though. In your current configuration, there should be no pressure on that line. That line should only see pressure when in Backwash or Rinse. This indicates that you have a leak in your Spider Valve, and probably need to replace the gasket.

As you can see, none of these options require contacting a plumber, and can all be done by you. My recommendation for the simplest and easiest is to either leave the existing plug in place, or install a valve where the plug is and address the spider valve gasket when you get a chance.
Threaded coupling ; Pipe ; Valve These are all 1-1/2 inch, may actually be 2" in your case, hard to tell from pictures.
 

sdtfp

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Let's take a look at this another way. What is that line for? It's a backwash line from your DE filter. It's there so you can backwash your filter when the DE get's dirty. What is the tank for? So you can trap the DE that you backwash. This is done either to prevent putting DE in a storm drain or so you can re-use the pool water. Re-using pool water is useful in places where water is expensive or requires processing to be useful. If your backwash line doesn't go into a storm drain then you don't have to worry about that. The tank may also be required by your local municipality, though I don't know why. Used DE is great for your yard/garden so shouldn't be an issue with discharging on the ground. So as I see it your options are:
1. Cut the line before it goes to the tank, setup a hose and for discharge to your yard (This is what I have, I don't have a Backwash filter tank). cut and cap the line from the tank back to your pool on the pool side.
2. Leave it as is with that plug installed, it's not going to be an issue 99% of the time. When your ready to backwash, if your not going back to the pool, remove the plug.
3. If you want to only go back to the pool, install a cap or isolation valve.
4. Install an isolation valve anyway, just make sure if you are backwashing through that line, that the valve is open.

There is another unadressed issue here though. In your current configuration, there should be no pressure on that line. That line should only see pressure when in Backwash or Rinse. This indicates that you have a leak in your Spider Valve, and probably need to replace the gasket.

As you can see, none of these options require contacting a plumber, and can all be done by you. My recommendation for the simplest and easiest is to either leave the existing plug in place, or install a valve where the plug is and address the spider valve gasket when you get a chance.
Threaded coupling ; Pipe ; Valve These are all 1-1/2 inch, may actually be 2" in your case, hard to tell from pictures.
Thanks for the insights!
The more I was thinking about it and I think this is either something I am still confused about or you may have missed it, is that there is a T coming out of the return line and into a non inlet port on a jandy valve. After watching some videos it made me think that jandy valves work with pressure helping the diverter to seal. In my case, there is no back pressure helping the diverter stop the pressure from the incoming return line. Does that make sense? You mentioned that line should only see pressure when in backwash or rinse, but I think the pressure is constant from the T in the return line. This is normal in filter mode. Can you see what I mean from the pictures I've already provided or should I put up a new one?

Assuming I am correct, the best answer still is #2. There are a few issues with leaving it as is.
1. It's confusing and I wasn't sure it would work. After running it a few hours, I am less worried about this.
2. The separation tank is getting filled from bottom to top. And on the top it is backfeeding the multi port( I think you called it spider valve). This should be fine I think, except it is causing a drip on the pvc pipe. A minor drip. Interestingly this drip had gone away when I created the current mess, so now I know with more certainty that the current setup is back to what it was before I messed with things. But I also worry about the backfeed pressure into the multi port and maybe reducing the multi ports life span? Also, I have to remember to empty this tank when winterizing.
3. It is just plain wrong? I mentioned this above, but i'll say it again, in my mind the inlet to the jandy valve is an outlet 99% of the time and the outlet is an inlet, 99% of the time. It's just the wrong valve for the job.

So I think #2 is fine for now, but I do want to figure out if I can easily (and should?) add an isolation valve after the T in the return line. I would leave that closed so that the outlet of the separation tank would require manual intervention to feed into the pool. In that case the jandy valve would remain with the open port setting. So that backwashing always goes out to the ground or a hose. And it's open over the winter to allow air toreach the separation tank. However, that means air would also reach the waste output of the multiport and in winterize mode, I believe that is semi open. I am not sure if this is okay. The problem is that now I need two manual interventions to backfeed into the pool. I am not sure that is very intuitive. But can it be avoided and which is the lesser evil?

Also, just in case it matters, I think it's 2" pvc and I think I saw schedule 40 marking on it.
 

1poolman1

In The Industry
Jul 14, 2014
98
Sacramento
The separation tank is used so that you do not throw the water away but return it without the DE to the pool. The rinse position on that valve is used, primarily, when that valve is used on a sand filter, though it might help a little to rinse your tank after a backwash. Backwashing DE to the ground makes a very large mess and is one of the reasons that DE is outlawed in many areas. Read an SDS on the product and it will (rightly) scare you about having that dust floating around you or your family.
 

sdtfp

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Jun 4, 2020
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Pump off
BACKWASH
Pump On
Run for 1-2 minutes or so
Pump off
RINSE
Pump On
Run for 1-2 minutes or so
Pump off
Repeat for 3 times

Then FILTER
Pump On
Add DE
Note clean PSI

Always turn the MPV selector in the same direction.
Okay for any one reading this in the future, I did with with some caveats..
1. First thing I did ...I drained the separation tank water into the pool...because of the cooky plumbing, that tank is always filled with clean water. I'm guessing if you have good plumbing this will be empty for you.
2. I did the backwash as above. BAckwash/rinse cycles 4 times. Water went from pump-> mpv out ->separation tank in-> separation tank out -> long hose -> street. Just had to make sure my separation tank out had the jandy valve set to close the entrance to pool return.
3. Drain the separation tank to waste. This takes a while as the water filters very slowly through the net in the separation tank.
4. Cleaned the net i nthe separation tank by putting all the DE into a garbage bin (i wont throw it out, I will use it for earth somewhere) and hosed off the separation tank at the street. Also rinsed the separation tank.
5. relubed the separation tank rubber gasket and sealed it.
6. Set to filter and turned on pump, added DE (4.8 lbs since normally its 6 lbs). And noted PSE of 12.5

One thing I noticed is when i turned on the pump to filter at the end, some waste came out. I'm guessing this is from turning the MPV in the same direction, which causes you to go over Filter option briefly and will put Crud back in your pool. Or my cooky plumbimg where jandy valve is supposed to stop water from coming back into pool return. But the water was coming out pretty clear out of separation tank netting, so I doubt it was this. It's not much, so I feel comfortable it will get cleaned up soon.

Other than that, it went fairly striahgt forward.
 

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